Electric and Hybrid Car Thread

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by TypeRNammer

Design wise, it's not that much of an update.

But if they improve on the NVH and suspension, that's going to be a big plus.

Would be surprised tbh because

The Y already got the sound deadening and suspension improvements in MY23.
The 3 had to wait for refresh because it didn’t sell enough volume

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by radeonboy

My main outstanding hesitation with them right now is their long-term reliability. Given how fast new models get churned out, I'm not sure how rigorous their durability tests are.

That record breaking Xiaomi?

- fastest charging EV so far (Max slightly worse than Taycan, Ultra better)
- production version’s brake calipers are fake, giant brembo cover on motorcycle sized pad
- seat frame collapsed in crash

Twitter X

I’ve driven most of the BYD stuff, however, and most Chinese EV charge super poorly, got terrible suspension tune, etc.
This is late 1990s Kia quality underneath the great interior and battery.

[roastpuff]

Does anyone have experience with the Cayenne E-Hybrid? Curious about the PHEV system performance in general. If you guys have towing experience with it that would even be better.

[AstulzerRZD]

What are you towing? Most ppl I know towing race car get the diesel

The ehybrid was very problematic; early battery failures cuz of bad BMS or water intrusion

[68style]

What mental hoops is anyone overthinking their way through that any Porsche becomes the best option for towing anything?

[roastpuff]

Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD

What are you towing? Most ppl I know towing race car get the diesel

The ehybrid was very problematic; early battery failures cuz of bad BMS or water intrusion

Open trailer with S2000 is what I want to tow. Need about 5500-6000lbs capacity on the safe side. Cayenne listed at 7700lbs.

Originally Posted by 68style

What mental hoops is anyone overthinking their way through that any Porsche becomes the best option for towing anything?

Wife wants: SUV, hybrid - no trucks allowed, no domestics allowed, "not too big" whatever that means.

I want: towing, decent driving experience. It basically came down to the Cayenne hybrid or the X5 hybrid, and she thinks the X5 size is too large.

EDIT: This will also be our "daily" car so strictly 2 cars, I can't store another vehicle as the "tow" truck or whatever.

[Badhobz]

Rolls Royce Cunnilingus EV will solve all your problems my man.

[EvoFire]

Originally Posted by roastpuff

Does anyone have experience with the Cayenne E-Hybrid? Curious about the PHEV system performance in general. If you guys have towing experience with it that would even be better.

Originally Posted by roastpuff

Open trailer with S2000 is what I want to tow. Need about 5500-6000lbs capacity on the safe side. Cayenne listed at 7700lbs.

Wife wants: SUV, hybrid - no trucks allowed, no domestics allowed, "not too big" whatever that means.

I want: towing, decent driving experience. It basically came down to the Cayenne hybrid or the X5 hybrid, and she thinks the X5 size is too large.

EDIT: This will also be our "daily" car so strictly 2 cars, I can't store another vehicle as the "tow" truck or whatever.

Cayenne is the same size/class as the X5. I cross shopped both and we bought a X5 45e.

It's extremely hard to find the correct answer for towing but the 45e tows 5700lbs iirc. The regular X5 tows something like 7500lbs. I would not be surprised if the Cayenne E tows less so you'll have to do your research.

People do tow with these things, but if you are going to do it regularly, just buy the regular gasser and forgo the hybrid.

The Cayenne E and X5 45/50e iirc uses the same Bosch system and paired with their own batteries and subsystems. Ask away cause I can probably answer a lot of your questions.

[roastpuff]

Originally Posted by EvoFire

Cayenne is the same size/class as the X5. I cross shopped both and we bought a X5 45e.

It's extremely hard to find the correct answer for towing but the 45e tows 5700lbs iirc. The regular X5 tows something like 7500lbs. I would not be surprised if the Cayenne E tows less so you'll have to do your research.

People do tow with these things, but if you are going to do it regularly, just buy the regular gasser and forgo the hybrid.

The Cayenne E and X5 45/50e iirc uses the same Bosch system and paired with their own batteries and subsystems. Ask away cause I can probably answer a lot of your questions.

The X5/Cayenne is the same class, but the X5 is much "larger" in appearance according to the wife. It doesn't matter that the dimensions are within 3-4 inches of each other, she still insists that "X5 too large"



My research shows that the Cayenne E-Hybrid is rated the same as all the non Coupe Cayennes at 7700lbs but does not come with hitch from factory typically. Can retrofit either via dealer or aftermarket. Rennlist is proving fruitful for info.

X5 non hybrid is 7700lbs, seems to be a standard German SUV rating as the Q7 and the GLE is rated at 7700lbs too.

EDIT: Some hybrid q's - how long does it take you to charge at 110V? I do not have access to charging at home, but I can plug into a 110V at work (which right now is 5 days a week at the office sadly) and does it DCFC?

EDIT: the towing will happen maybe 2-3x a year, to take the S2000 to further tracks.

[radeonboy]

Originally Posted by roastpuff

EDIT: Some hybrid q's - how long does it take you to charge at 110V? I do not have access to charging at home, but I can plug into a 110V at work (which right now is 5 days a week at the office sadly) and does it DCFC?

The standard 45e charger that comes with the car charges at 10A, which is about 17-18 hours from 0-100%. You can get another charger that goes up to 12A on 110V - that'll cut the charging time from to about 15 hours.

45e/50e can't DC fast charge at level 3 - I think only the GLE and RR-Sport can handle DCFC in the same segment. Even at Level 2 chargers, the 45e charges at 3.6kW max and 50e I believe goes up to 7.2kW. Given your situation without home charging, I almost wouldn't bother with PHEV unless you want HOV access, can reliably get 110v charging every day at the office parking lot, and drive enough to make up for the price premium over a gas model.

[EvoFire]

Ok yes you are correct in that it "seems" like a bigger car. The extra height really makes a difference in the perception of a bigger vehicle.

We bought it as a family car so the extra utility of the trunk and height was a big factor. That and the Cayenne costs about 30-40% more for probably a 10-15% improvement didn't seem like a great tradeoff for a car that mainly toodles around in traffic.

The X5 can have a factory hitch, which is the ideal way to go. I bought mine used and it wasn't optioned and it's nigh impossible to do it OEM. I bought the hidden hitch and if you want to tow with it it'll be ~2k for the hitch plus a very arduous install.

If I am completely empty, it's 24hours to charge on 110V with the included charger rated at 10amps. You can purchase a 12amp charger which should improve it a little. The X5 45e will take a maximum of 16amps @ 240V which translates to roughly 3.3kw.

Both the Cayenne and X5 were recently updated for 2024 and can take up to 7kw (220V 32amp). I would actually recommend against buying a plugin if you can't charge reliably. The X5 gets terrible fuel mileage when on gas engine, and unless you can do most of your driving around town in EV mode, you aren't going to save anything. With the drive system being similar or the same, I expect the Cayenne to do just as poorly. I can go into more specifics and my assumptions if you want.

I don't know what DCFC actually means in terms of raw numbers, but most chargers will max out at around 6.6W around Vancouver., less with some of the Chargepoint and Shell chargers as they have one power line serving two chargers. So if you are sharing a charger with another car you'll only get 3.2kw after subtracting some operating losses.

I do have a question for you, are you planning to buy new or used? If you are deadset on a PHEV you'll want a 2024 or newer.


EDIT: I've actually charged a few times outside as there are free chargers, or it's still cheaper than filling up with gas. I've only seen a max rate of 3.2/3.3kw despite the theoretical max of 3.6

[JDMDreams]

Cccccccombo breaker, what about a Lexus LX, GX or is the Japanese too reliable and old money

[Badhobz]

Get the new GX. It’s the same as the Land Cruiser and LX. Hell they are all the same nao.

Get the old GX with da v8 if you want a real Toyota. But you’ll go broke driving it around town. 18/100km okay ? Okay ! Sign me up

[radeonboy]

The current LC and GX are longer and significantly taller than the 'too big' X5 though...

https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/com...rado-2023-suv/

If size wasn't a problem, an overstock / lightly-used 2023/24 Nissan Armada are great deals, perfect for towing, and reliable at the expense of gas consumption.

[AstulzerRZD]

Mazda is now a Chinese EV brand

- RWD
- Hatchback

Objectively this is pretty terrible, they are living in 2018.

- Changan’s scalable EPA1 platform
- 0-62mph in up to 7.6 seconds
- 10-80% in 22 minutes with 68.8kw battery, 45 minutes with 80kw battery

Twitter X

[roastpuff]

Originally Posted by radeonboy

The standard 45e charger that comes with the car charges at 10A, which is about 17-18 hours from 0-100%. You can get another charger that goes up to 12A on 110V - that'll cut the charging time from to about 15 hours.

45e/50e can't DC fast charge at level 3 - I think only the GLE and RR-Sport can handle DCFC in the same segment. Even at Level 2 chargers, the 45e charges at 3.6kW max and 50e I believe goes up to 7.2kW. Given your situation without home charging, I almost wouldn't bother with PHEV unless you want HOV access, can reliably get 110v charging every day at the office parking lot, and drive enough to make up for the price premium over a gas model.

At the office, I would have a dedicated EV stall (110v "EV" lol) so 8 hours of charging every weekday. We average about 16-18k km per year on our A4, as it is our daily, and do road trips/etc. HOV access would be nice as we are just off the Gagliardi exit and often take Hwy 1 to go to my wife's parents' place off Boundary or out to Surrey to visit friends (but not critical).

I would be fine not buying a PHEV, in fact Cayenne diesels are pretty darn attractive too lol. But the wife wants a PHEV as her non-negotiable so...

Originally Posted by EvoFire

Ok yes you are correct in that it "seems" like a bigger car. The extra height really makes a difference in the perception of a bigger vehicle.

We bought it as a family car so the extra utility of the trunk and height was a big factor. That and the Cayenne costs about 30-40% more for probably a 10-15% improvement didn't seem like a great tradeoff for a car that mainly toodles around in traffic.

The X5 can have a factory hitch, which is the ideal way to go. I bought mine used and it wasn't optioned and it's nigh impossible to do it OEM. I bought the hidden hitch and if you want to tow with it it'll be ~2k for the hitch plus a very arduous install.

If I am completely empty, it's 24hours to charge on 110V with the included charger rated at 10amps. You can purchase a 12amp charger which should improve it a little. The X5 45e will take a maximum of 16amps @ 240V which translates to roughly 3.3kw.

Both the Cayenne and X5 were recently updated for 2024 and can take up to 7kw (220V 32amp). I would actually recommend against buying a plugin if you can't charge reliably. The X5 gets terrible fuel mileage when on gas engine, and unless you can do most of your driving around town in EV mode, you aren't going to save anything. With the drive system being similar or the same, I expect the Cayenne to do just as poorly. I can go into more specifics and my assumptions if you want.

I don't know what DCFC actually means in terms of raw numbers, but most chargers will max out at around 6.6W around Vancouver., less with some of the Chargepoint and Shell chargers as they have one power line serving two chargers. So if you are sharing a charger with another car you'll only get 3.2kw after subtracting some operating losses.

I do have a question for you, are you planning to buy new or used? If you are deadset on a PHEV you'll want a 2024 or newer.


EDIT: I've actually charged a few times outside as there are free chargers, or it's still cheaper than filling up with gas. I've only seen a max rate of 3.2/3.3kw despite the theoretical max of 3.6

Definitely not looking for new. CPO preferred; a few years old would be fine. Definitely would get a warranty lol. A 2024 Cayenne or X5 definitely wouldn't fit our budget, but maybe in 2026 they will be cheaper....

Originally Posted by JDMDreams

Cccccccombo breaker, what about a Lexus LX, GX or is the Japanese too reliable and old money

Would love either - in fact I talked to my dad's friend who has a LX470 (04? 06?) and wants to sell once he dies (he's 75 but fit as fuck, I'll prob die first). Wife vetoed.

Originally Posted by Badhobz

Get the new GX. It’s the same as the Land Cruiser and LX. Hell they are all the same nao.

Get the old GX with da v8 if you want a real Toyota. But you’ll go broke driving it around town. 18/100km okay ? Okay ! Sign me up

I blame the wife. Also, have you seen the price on the GX? Fuck it's expensive. LC is out due to tow rating being shit with the 4-cyl turbo hybrid.

Originally Posted by radeonboy

The current LC and GX are longer and significantly taller than the 'too big' X5 though...

https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/com...rado-2023-suv/

If size wasn't a problem, an overstock / lightly-used 2023/24 Nissan Armada are great deals, perfect for towing, and reliable at the expense of gas consumption.

Size, and lack of hybrid ruled that out. I took a look at the QX56/Armada too...

[AstulzerRZD]

Sometimes it's not the perfect decision but it will work.

Sounds like you don't really have a choice for reliability if you need PHEV and German.
Double check the battery warranty lengths and call it a day.

7kw charging a must for public charging to be cheaper than gas, math below.
60kw DCFC on the Benz is really what you want.

If wife is ok with GLE450e, it also has 7k tow rating.

-------------

Math:

Gas: 15L/100km, 25c/km

3kw charging Cayenne: 37c/km because $2/hr, max out at 3kw, 66c/kw, 1kw = 1.6km or so.
5 hour topup for 30km.

7kw charging Cayenne: 18c/km because $2/hr, you get 6kw at most station, 33c/kw
3 hour topup for 30km.

60kw DCFC Mercedes: 16-20c/km with 35c/kw at BCHydro, 27c/kw at Tesla
30 minute topup for 80km.

[radeonboy]

GLE450e's are pretty rare, and probably 'too-big' by the wife since it's closer to X5 in size than the Cayenne.

Given the wife's options (PHEV, SUV of that class, size, no domestics), only the Cayenne fits the bill (maybe that's her end game? ). The other option I can think of is the RX PHEV but that's still too new and $$$.

I think she can acclimatize to the size of an X5, otherwise, would the wife consider one size down? That will open up options like the NX, XC60, X3 30e etc.

[noclue]

I’ve seen more of my neighbours dealer courtesy rental cayenne than his actual cayenne e-hybrid. FWIW stick with just gas for Germans

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by radeonboy

GLE450e's are pretty rare, and probably 'too-big' by the wife since it's closer to X5 in size than the Cayenne.

Given the wife's options (PHEV, SUV of that class, size, no domestics), only the Cayenne fits the bill (maybe that's her end game? ). The other option I can think of is the RX PHEV but that's still too new and $$$.

I think she can acclimatize to the size of an X5, otherwise, would the wife consider one size down? That will open up options like the NX, XC60, X3 30e etc.

low key i think she just wants the cayenne, have u tried offering the PHEV range rover?

x5 and gle image is not good; it's giving mid-market New Jersey/Long Island mom who doesn't know better than Longchamps/LV/Goyard vibe.

[Badhobz]

Have you thought of getting a new wife instead ?

[AstulzerRZD]

New one might ask for a Purosangue

[EvoFire]

Originally Posted by roastpuff

At the office, I would have a dedicated EV stall (110v "EV" lol) so 8 hours of charging every weekday. We average about 16-18k km per year on our A4, as it is our daily, and do road trips/etc. HOV access would be nice as we are just off the Gagliardi exit and often take Hwy 1 to go to my wife's parents' place off Boundary or out to Surrey to visit friends (but not critical).

I would be fine not buying a PHEV, in fact Cayenne diesels are pretty darn attractive too lol. But the wife wants a PHEV as her non-negotiable so...

Definitely not looking for new. CPO preferred; a few years old would be fine. Definitely would get a warranty lol. A 2024 Cayenne or X5 definitely wouldn't fit our budget, but maybe in 2026 they will be cheaper....

Would love either - in fact I talked to my dad's friend who has a LX470 (04? 06?) and wants to sell once he dies (he's 75 but fit as fuck, I'll prob die first). Wife vetoed.

I blame the wife. Also, have you seen the price on the GX? Fuck it's expensive. LC is out due to tow rating being shit with the 4-cyl turbo hybrid.

Size, and lack of hybrid ruled that out. I took a look at the QX56/Armada too...

If you are looking at 21-23 X5 45e or Cayenne ehybrid, for your use case at 16-18k km a year, don't do it. It doesn't fit your usage at all and you'll be burning a lot of gas.

A X5 40i is roughly 10k less for similar year/mileage/options out the door, and 10k is a lot of gas money when you can't take advantage of the EV part of the equation like we do. 8 hours a day only gets you about 18-20km of range, and none on the weekends, so easily 1/3 to 1/2 of your regular usage would still be on gas.

We've had the car for about 6 months now and put 7k on it. We've put in $70 of gas for the first 5 months, then Christmas happened, between the gatherings and activities and kids not being in school, we've had to put in another $70 in the last month. We are on the plug for easily 12-15 hours a day to keep up with our usage, and we will still empty the battery if we have more than 2 outings a day. The battery will also not make it to Langley and back from Vancouver.

The HOV sticker is relatively useless for us because we almost never take the car on the highway with just one person. We always have the kids in tow so we may as well not need it.

There are other options in the market like the Volvo XC90 Recharge and the GLE450e and Lexus RX500h. None of them will solve your lack of ability to charge. None of them will be as "sporty" as the X5 or Cayenne, though the X5 is already stretching the definition of sporty imo. The XC90 has been around for awhile already so you should be able to find one. The GLE450e is new for 2024 so probably out of your range as well, ditto the RX.

Keep in mind these cars are relatively rare, there's more X5 than Cayenne, and some of the Cayennes have really weird option loadouts. There's also the caveat of X5's missing options due to the chip shortage and makes looking for cars really testing for your patience.

TL;DR - Get a regular one with the options you want, whether if it's Cayenne or X5.

Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD

low key i think she just wants the cayenne, have u tried offering the PHEV range rover?

x5 and gle image is not good; it's giving mid-market New Jersey/Long Island mom who doesn't know better than Longchamps/LV/Goyard vibe.

Your demographic is a little different from ours.

And fuck lol.... range rover and towing long range. He's gonna need a tow for the RR and a tow for the tow.

[bcrdukes]

Are we trying to bankrupt roastpuff?

[underscore]

A PHEV that's not too large but big enough to comfortably tow a car is going to be a very narrow list of vehicles to pick from. Even finding 1 option that ticks all those boxes seems lucky.

Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD

PHEV range rover?

A Range Rover with more electronics in it? At that point just save time and drive the S2000 straight to the track and save the hassle of unloading it halfway while you wait for BCAA to pick up the RR.