Electric and Hybrid Car Thread

[JDMDreams]

Let's say $400 a month in gas plus any maintenance on top, now it's like maybe $600 ish a month payment plus extra for ICBC and electricity $100. So paying like $200 - $300 more than old 20 year old beater.

Something that ppl don't factor is it's a newer and safer car under warranty that you're getting. Sure it's cheaper maybe if the beater doesn't catastrophically fail, but you gain all the modern safety aids and crash ratings and technology. I sure wouldn't want to get hit in a 20 year old car Vs a modern car.

And my life is worth more than the $200, $300 a month that I'm already paying for something new and way safer.

As much as I hate to admit, but I'm not about dat rust bucket DD, no AC, no abs, no power steering lyfe anymore. As much fun as old VTEC Eg6 Dc2s are

[Great68]

This thread just reminded me that I had to check my 2021 mileage and gas receipts for my income tax.

2321kms and $474 (at 94 octane) in gas for the year. LOL

[6thGear.]

Originally Posted by 68style

Well yah I mean there's no arguing it's cheaper to run a EV month to month... but you probably paid 6 figures for a used Model X as an interim car... it's kinda hard to say you saved $500 a month considering what else is available at that price point. That's an absolutely massive borderline supercar level expenditure upfront on the vehicle itself.

Used Model X to get by LOL. Aren't people selling used Teslas and making a profit? Shit quick CL search on used X and they're all $120+. Minus the 2017 for $92k from some random dealer

Originally Posted by JDMDreams

Let's say $400 a month in gas plus any maintenance on top, now it's like maybe $600 ish a month payment plus extra for ICBC and electricity $100. So paying like $200 - $300 more than old 20 year old beater.

Something that ppl don't factor is it's a newer and safer car under warranty that you're getting. Sure it's cheaper maybe if the beater doesn't catastrophically fail, but you gain all the modern safety aids and crash ratings and technology. I sure wouldn't want to get hit in a 20 year old car Vs a modern car.

And my life is worth more than the $200, $300 a month that I'm already paying for something new and way safer.

As much as I hate to admit, but I'm not about dat rust bucket DD, no AC, no abs, no power steering lyfe anymore. As much fun as old VTEC Eg6 Dc2s are

No abs/ac fun car is the day I can afford a house with a garage to store it in and stare at it cause can't drive it in shitty weather cause no abs can't drive it in the summer cause no ac

[68style]

It's definitely a personal choice to drive an old car vs a new one. I have a bunch of collector plated cars, 25+ years old does not mean it's a beater with no amenities. 1997 is 25 years ago now so ABS and P/S etc were around... AC is all R134 converted in the early 90's... heck my 1968 Mustang has power steering but it's a horrible daily driver so I am not even including it as an example.

I wouldn't expect too many people to be like me, I'm an outlier... however... I very much question spending $100k on a used Model X instead of $40k on a used RX350. Same model year, same safety and features standards.

You are NEVER going to close that cost gap between those 2. I don't think the X is any more luxurious either. Prices need to come down to make it viable.

[JDMDreams]

I literally had a super charged toy car that I bought back in like 18 that I've driven like less than 1000 km in 3 years. Bekuz vi Bois are dicks that I just put in the garage and look at first world problems

[TypeRNammer]

Here's the JDM Subaru Solterra STi cosmetics concept version

Kind of digging it actually.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by 68style

Well yah I mean there's no arguing it's cheaper to run a EV month to month... but you probably paid 6 figures for a used Model X as an interim car... it's kinda hard to say you saved $500 a month considering what else is available at that price point. That's an absolutely massive borderline supercar level expenditure upfront on the vehicle itself.

I got my used 2016 Model X off Tesla for mid 60k+tax... something like low 70s tax in.

I actually didn't mention about car cost because it's hard to compare and everyone's preference is different. But say if you were to compare a Model 3 with a BMW 3-class or Benz C-class. The payments are roughly the same, but the operating cost on the Model3 is so much lower.

And when you factor the saving into, which in my case works out about 300-400 when gas and maintenance are factored into. Yes, I used to do my maintenance at stealership. And that's still the case with Tesla, so I think it's a fair apple to apple comparison. Only thing I had to replace was air filter (which was more of a feel-good replacement. It was fine, but the tech was coming to make some minor warranty work, so I did it together) and wiper fluid.

And with Tesla service, I didn't even need to drop the car off or anything... I just let the mobile service know where the car was going to be, they can do everything without me ever meeting the tech and/or any time without car as they did the service while I was working inside the house.

My point is, Tesla or EV in general aren't perfect yet. We don't have anywhere near enough charging options on road to make it comparable to ICE. But when you take the saving (which is enough to cover a small ICE car payment) and everything into calculation, for city-wide day-to-day commute, still driving ICE is actually a waste of money (gas saving varies, but I was doing about 22-25k a year, gas-saving alone can cover a brand new cheapo ICE car payment) and time. (because everyday you charge at home when you get back. No more visit to gas station, ever). Just the same as your argument of new vs. used.

[whitev70r]

Originally Posted by 68style

I wouldn't expect too many people to be like me, I'm an outlier... however... I very much question spending $100k on a used Model X instead of $40k on a used RX350. Same model year, same safety and features standards.

You are NEVER going to close that cost gap between those 2. I don't think the X is any more luxurious either. Prices need to come down to make it viable.

I'd be more like this ... how long will it take you to recover the $60K difference in a EV? Or in your case, $70K Tesla X to a used RX350 $40K ... still $30K diff. Anyhow ... to each his/her own.

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

I'd be more like this ... how long will it take you to recover the $60K difference in a EV? Or in your case, $70K Tesla X to a used RX350 $40K ... still $30K diff. Anyhow ... to each his/her own.

Yeah but according to this thread you won't have ABS or power steering, it'll break down constantly and you and your whole family will die in a fiery death. Remember anything that's not an EV is a 20 year old beater.

[GLOW]

the orange accents remind me of my forester sport

Originally Posted by TypeRNammer

Here's the JDM Subaru Solterra STi cosmetics concept version

Kind of digging it actually.

[Koflach]

Before I bought my first model 3 back in 2018 I did a spreadsheet that covers all the major costs to compare the Long Range 2018 Model 3 vs my old car a 2014 Hyundai Sonata. After looking at insurance cost, gas ($1.50/l at the time) vs electricity, maintenance, and monthly payment of each vehicle it actually worked out to be cheaper to have the Model 3 for me.

[JDMDreams]

How you recoup the cost really depends how much you drive and the type of vehicle. The more you drive the more sense it makes. It would take you years to make up the cost difference if you drive 5 km a day. But when I quoted $400 a month on gas + maintenance it was on a 20 year old Honda accord. and yes we've had Rx330 Rx350 too, they were pigs that needed premium that's why we got the accord as a cheap beater. The difference in gas to fill a rx300 or a rx350 is minimal. Even the newer ones aren't that much better on gas unless you have a hybrid. So your fixed cost is gas which is basically how much you drive and the type of car it is. Whether it's a 99 rx300 or a 20 rx350 you still need to fill it up with the similar amounts of gas.

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by Koflach

Before I bought my first model 3 back in 2018 I did a spreadsheet that covers all the major costs to compare the Long Range 2018 Model 3 vs my old car a 2014 Hyundai Sonata. After looking at insurance cost, gas ($1.50/l at the time) vs electricity, maintenance, and monthly payment of each vehicle it actually worked out to be cheaper to have the Model 3 for me.

Curious if you could share some facts with us on what the monthly and annual savings are and in which categories (i.e. fuel / maintenance / insurance etc.) between the two vehicles. Would be enlightening at the very least.

[GLOW]

i'd also be interested in how many km's you drive/year on avg as well.

[Koflach]

Here's a couple of the things that I put in that effects everyone, Gas V Electricity and Insurance. I drive roughly 20k-25k km per year which at the time worked out to about $400 per month in gas. The cost of electricity was $0.0884/kwh at home but my numbers on electricity cost were about half of what it increased by after we got the car. Also, I have my insurance set up for full business use so yours may be different from mine. I'm sure my numbers aren't perfect but they helped me get a better understanding of the costs going from and ICE car to an EV. Feel free to ask any follow-up questions if you like.

Tesla Charging Cost
Cost per KWH $0.0884
Capacity of Model 3 (in kwh) 75
Cost to fill $6.63
Cost per Month $19.89
Cost over term of Tesla $1,909.44

Cost to fill Sonata
Cost per KWH $1.5000
Capacity of Sonata (in Litres) 70
Cost to fill $105.00
Cost per Month $420.00
Cost over term of Tesla $40,320.00

Fuel Savings per Fill $98.37
Fuel Savings per Month $400.11
Fuel Savings over term of Tesla $38,410.56


Electric savings over ICE $38,410.56
Cost of Tesla after gas savings $35,366.86

Insurance on Sonata per month $176.80
Insurance on Sonata per year $2,121.60

Insurance on Tesla per month $177.71
Insurance on Model 3 per year $2,132.52

[whitev70r]

Thanks for all the details but it is still a bit 'deceiving'. For sure, no one would question how much you save on gas per month. What your calculations tells me is that even after 96 months (8 years) of savings from ICE to EV, you'd still have to put out $35,366.86 for the Tesla. Am I reading your figures right?

I think most of us is stuck on that part. If I keep my present car, how long will it take for me to recover my initial outlay of >$70K for a new EV or Tesla. What your figures tell me is that after 8 years of savings, I still have to put out $35K now.

[bcrdukes]

Thanks for sharing.

I have not checked, but what is the average finance and lease interest rate on a Tesla over say 5 years?

I think the situation and preference for everyone will vary. I would imagine the residual value or resale value of a Sonata isn't the best after a 5 year term, be it lease or finance when you factor in depreciation. Maintenance is maintenance. People will have their preferences for electrics/hybrid vehicles so that is that. Just based on numbers alone, electric (or a Tesla for that matter) isn't for me and won't be for a long time to come.

[Teriyaki]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

Thanks for all the details but it is still a bit 'deceiving'. For sure, no one would question how much you save on gas per month. What your calculations tells me is that even after 96 months (8 years) of savings from ICE to EV, you'd still have to put out $35,366.86 for the Tesla. Am I reading your figures right?

I think most of us is stuck on that part. If I keep my present car, how long will it take for me to recover my initial outlay of >$70K for a new EV or Tesla. What your figures tell me is that after 8 years of savings, I still have to put out $35K now.

I think the approach to something like this wont' really make sense if there is no "need" to change your car?

The ICE to EV comparison is really only applicable on a cost effective basis if you needed to buy/replace your car anyways and the cost delta is between changing to a ICE car or a EV car. There may come a time when the upfront costs of buying a new car ( by that point they'll likely be all EV's ), will make more sense than paying to maintain your old gas mobile but that time is far far in the distance if it ever comes.

[whitev70r]

^ Yes, totally, what Koflach's numbers tell me is that if I was thinking of getting a new car between ICE and EV, if you factor in the gas savings over a period of time, you can purchase an EV that is easily $20-30K more and see the benefit over 6-9 years.

I agree, everyone's situation is different because I'm looking at keeping my car vs. buying new EV. But I'm like some others here, I've never a bought a new car.

[!Aznboi128]

If you're really into savings the best thing to do would be to pick up a used EV for cheap. Say 10-15k EV it'll be a lot easier to make up the difference than a $60k Tesla model 3. Yes maintenance cost etc would be different but $50k savings goes a long way.

For most switching out of their current car into a brand new EV will take years to recoup, I think when I did my calculations it'll be 10 years or so before I see a return.

[JDMDreams]

Not sure about now but I think Tesla finance was about 2.5 to 2.8% back in the summer. Still way cheaper than Toyota or inflation. Basically the bank is losing money lending you the money

[bcedhk]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

Thanks for all the details but it is still a bit 'deceiving'. For sure, no one would question how much you save on gas per month. What your calculations tells me is that even after 96 months (8 years) of savings from ICE to EV, you'd still have to put out $35,366.86 for the Tesla. Am I reading your figures right?

I think most of us is stuck on that part. If I keep my present car, how long will it take for me to recover my initial outlay of >$70K for a new EV or Tesla. What your figures tell me is that after 8 years of savings, I still have to put out $35K now.

Used EVs hold their value a lot better though. so after 5-6 years ownership, you might still be able to sell the Tesla for 25k+. 10k to operate a new high-tech vehicle isn't to bad if it can be stretched out for 5-6 years.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Thanks for sharing.

I have not checked, but what is the average finance and lease interest rate on a Tesla over say 5 years?

I think the situation and preference for everyone will vary. I would imagine the residual value or resale value of a Sonata isn't the best after a 5 year term, be it lease or finance when you factor in depreciation. Maintenance is maintenance. People will have their preferences for electrics/hybrid vehicles so that is that. Just based on numbers alone, electric (or a Tesla for that matter) isn't for me and won't be for a long time to come.

Tesla's financing is through banks, usually RBC and Scotia. Rate is nothing to write home about, but not terrible. Right now, I think it's around 2.9% for 72mth and a bit less if you go 60 or shorter.

My math was a bit more sophisticated, but I can't seem to find the excel anymore.

But using Koflach's form, it's basically like this:

Cost per KWH $0.1408 (I used tier 2 from the get-go because it's impossible for me to stay under tier 1 with EV)
Capacity needed for Model 3 (in kwh) 90 (I used 90 by factoring 20% efficiency loss, which should be under, but let's just say worst-case scenario)
Cost to fill $12.67 for roughly 450km on average.
Cost per Month @24k/yr or 2k/mth $56.25
Maintenance with Tesla: Average 2200 every 4yrs or $550/yr (there's a major service every 4yr to open the motor to clean and lub. IIRC the only major service, or else it's $75 every 2yr for filter. Brakes never come close to need replacement in 10yrs)
Insurance: they were roughly the same, so I didn't care to compare.
Total cost of maintenance for 10yrs: $5500
Total cost to fill for 10yrs: $6750.6
Total cost to fill at supercharger for 10yrs: $5000 as one can't always be in the city/charge at home. I haven't come anywhere close to $500 a year for SC, but I'd just be generous for the worst-case scenario.
Total cost of operation for 10yrs: $17250.58

Cost to fill BMW
Cost per Litter $1.9 (premium)
Cost for 100KM at an average 12L/100km $22.8
Cost of gas at 24k/yr: 5472
Maintenance: first 3yr for free, averaging at $1700/yr for 10yrs. Yes, 3rd-party might be able to do it for cheaper, but let's do an apple to apple comp and use dealership/service center for both
Total cost of maintenance for 10yrs: 17000
Total cost to fill for 10yrs: $54720
Total cost of operation for 10yrs: $71720

This was roughly how my table looked like. I took the assumption that after 10yrs, both cars would be worthless because otherwise bringing depreciation and whatever makes things too complicated. But the difference is just too big to ignore. This is what I'm referring of as a city-car, if you aren't operating an EV, you are throwing money away.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

Thanks for all the details but it is still a bit 'deceiving'. For sure, no one would question how much you save on gas per month. What your calculations tells me is that even after 96 months (8 years) of savings from ICE to EV, you'd still have to put out $35,366.86 for the Tesla. Am I reading your figures right?

I think most of us is stuck on that part. If I keep my present car, how long will it take for me to recover my initial outlay of >$70K for a new EV or Tesla. What your figures tell me is that after 8 years of savings, I still have to put out $35K now.

Great question. You are only viewing a part of the spreadsheet but the number of $35,366.86 was just to help me understand what the cost of the car would be after factoring in fuel savings. This number helps me understand what other new ICE cars the Model 3 would be competing with as you can't really compare a 70k ice car to a 70k model 3.

[freakshow]

for 99% of people you buy a tesla because you like it. If you wanted to save money, you would buy a 2007 Civic for 4k and drive it into the ground.