Electric and Hybrid Car Thread

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by freakshow

for 99% of people you buy a tesla because you like it. If you wanted to save money, you would buy a 2007 Civic for 4k and drive it into the ground.

Yeah but then you can't drive in the HOV lane and tell people how you're doing your part to save the planet lol

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by freakshow

for 99% of people you buy a tesla because you like it. If you wanted to save money, you would buy a 2007 Civic for 4k and drive it into the ground.

The saving is not much... a 2007 Civic does what? 8L/100km if you are not heavy on pedal. That's still ~$275 in gas every month assuming one does 2k at today's price... and might go even higher, while our hydro rate is pretty much constant.

When I was doing a 10yr cost analysis to decide whether to buy my Model 3 SR+, in no scenario an ICE could come out ahead assuming everything is either brand new or relatively new so I don't need to worry about suddenly being without car; All the way down to a Yaris.

By buying a 15yrs beater is not saving money. It's just spending as little as possible and hoping for the best.

[M Speed]

Originally Posted by freakshow

for 99% of people you buy a tesla because you like it. If you wanted to save money, you would buy a 2007 Civic for 4k and drive it into the ground.

Can't put old beater vs new semi luxury vehicles.

If not why buy a c class when a corolla can do the job both brand new with advance safety features?

[68style]

I trust Hehe’s numbers, although I will say hardly anybody keeps a car for 15 years.

Also dude you have made like $30k on your Model X if you got it for $70k… resell that shit lol

[twitchyzero]

are there used EVs with range worth a lick, worth buying?

I was reading once a cell dies the whole pack is toast, so do you get extended warranty?

[whitev70r]

^ that's my question. Seeing 1st gen Leafs (with like very limited range to begin with) around 2014 going for $11K, can't imagine the range or capacity on battery after 8 years being that good.

Another consideration for higher end EV's like Teslas, you think your residual value will keep or still be high after 8-10 years when battery needs to be replaced ?

[jaaagman]

https://driving.ca/features/feature-...ge-the-battery

It seems like battery replacement cars like the first gen Nissan Leaf's are hard to come by. Based on the videos from Rich Rebuilds' channel, Tesla replacement parts are similarly difficult to source from the manufacturer. For long term ownership, the ability to replace one of the battery modules versus the entire battery pack is still up in the air.

No doubt that this will get better with time, but I was really hoping Nissan would do a better job of providing EV parts support. I heard that older Prius NiMH battery pack replacements are quite common (in the US at least).

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by freakshow

for 99% of people you buy a tesla because you like it. If you wanted to save money, you would buy a 2007 Civic for 4k and drive it into the ground.

I can't speak for everyone else but the choice for me was more than just trying to save money. The cost savings of an EV vs and ICE are only there if you drive the car as you are typically paying more upfront on the EV so you do need to drive it a lot to realize the savings. Some of the other factors I thought of that held a lot of weight for me were:

- Safety. I have two children and the safety of Tesla's is hard to get in a lot of other cars.
- Convenience. The ability to fill my car up at home is amazing. The freedom of no longer having to stress about gas prices going up/down anymore and then simply no longer having to go to gas stations anymore.
- Comfort. I drive a lot for work and having a 2007 Honda Civic vs a new Tesla Model 3 makes a big difference. My car is essentially my office so it was important for me to have a comfortable car.
- User Interface. Before I had the car I thought it was going to be quite hard not having all the gauges behind the steering wheel to look at but I found it a very easy transition. Also, I love not having all the buttons all over the car and just having the screen. It's like going from a flip phone to a smart phone.

These are just a few but there are a lot of benefits to driving an EV beyond just potential savings.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

are there used EVs with range worth a lick, worth buying?

I was reading once a cell dies the whole pack is toast, so do you get extended warranty?

The first generation leaf is one car I would stay far away from as they have had a lot of documented battery issues.

If you are considering getting a secondhand EV then do your research on it and the technology behind their battery packs as the Bolt, Leaf and Tesla's all have been around long enough to have a lot of people go through any issues you might come across.

The best advice I can give you when buying an EV is to get a car with as much range as you can afford.

[TypeRNammer]

Originally Posted by Koflach

I can't speak for everyone else but the choice for me was more than just trying to save money. The cost savings of an EV vs and ICE are only there if you drive the car as you are typically paying more upfront on the EV so you do need to drive it a lot to realize the savings. Some of the other factors I thought of that held a lot of weight for me were:

- Safety. I have two children and the safety of Tesla's is hard to get in a lot of other cars.
- Convenience. The ability to fill my car up at home is amazing. The freedom of no longer having to stress about gas prices going up/down anymore and then simply no longer having to go to gas stations anymore.
- Comfort. I drive a lot for work and having a 2007 Honda Civic vs a new Tesla Model 3 makes a big difference. My car is essentially my office so it was important for me to have a comfortable car.
- User Interface. Before I had the car I thought it was going to be quite hard not having all the gauges behind the steering wheel to look at but I found it a very easy transition. Also, I love not having all the buttons all over the car and just having the screen. It's like going from a flip phone to a smart phone.

These are just a few but there are a lot of benefits to driving an EV beyond just potential savings.

I can reflect on the same comments here. Our model 3 was a replacement for the Honda Odyssey.

Honda Odyssey to fill up at current gas prices would hurt the wallet quite a bit, $130 bucks to fill only to get 600km a tank. Calculations would indicate that annual fuel costs would be well north of $4,000.

Then there's my BMW X1, which is my car to use mainly for to and from work. I only drive it about 13,000km a year. Annual fuel costs is over $3,000.

Hoping to replace the X1 some time in the next 3 years or so, taking a wait and see approach to see what manufacturers have to offer. Maybe by then Tesla will release a smaller Model 3

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

are there used EVs with range worth a lick, worth buying?

I was reading once a cell dies the whole pack is toast, so do you get extended warranty?

I think it goes back to what I said before. The idea of buying used (as in quite a bit older at a big discount. Anything relatively new, especially Tesla are sold near the price of new or over) EV doesn't make too much sense. At least for Tesla... and the reason is actually about battery replacement.

And maybe I'm the only one, but I see the complete battery replacement at 22k a plus. This is not an engine rebuild as in ICE, but a complete engine replacement if you are thinking from ICE perspective.

Yes, the drivetrain is old, but the way they are designed, they are really meant to last beyond what a battery pack or 2 can possibly last.

And the same way I use my iPhone X... everything was fine with the phone. It was just the battery, after years of abuse no longer hold the charge and I was constantly finding chargers. I replaced the battery, at Apple for godsake, and everything is like new and I think it's good to go for another 4-5yrs.

Tesla makes their cars almost identical. And yes there are some efficiency touches here and there. But if I didn't care for those, like a buddy of mine in Toronto, who has a 200k+ Model S. That's basically the new definition of "driving it to the ground". We'll just drive the heck out of it, and when the battery no longer gives us the range enough to cover our driving, I'd replace the battery and start from almost new again.

And not sure when it's going to come to an end for Model 3 as its platform is still relatively new. The constant software update makes the car feel different after every major update. The car now is totally different than when I picked it up back in 2019 and I expect it to continue for the next few years.

[M Speed]

Originally Posted by Koflach

The first generation leaf is one car I would stay far away from as they have had a lot of documented battery issues.

If you are considering getting a secondhand EV then do your research on it and the technology behind their battery packs as the Bolt, Leaf and Tesla's all have been around long enough to have a lot of people go through any issues you might come across.

The best advice I can give you when buying an EV is to get a car with as much range as you can afford.

Could you name some example of the leaf battery issues? From all the EVs on the market, Nissan is the only manufacturer that has not recall battery. Yes leafs are not great on range or charge speed, but they are cheap to own, hov access, hell even buy an eBike cost a couple thousands.

Vancouver isn't really cold and some commute are reachable, If one can get a leaf that is at 10K that does 80km just commute to/from work....Could easily make the car free in two years.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by M Speed

Could you name some example of the leaf battery issues? From all the EVs on the market, Nissan is the only manufacturer that has not recall battery. Yes leafs are not great on range or charge speed, but they are cheap to own, hov access, hell even buy an eBike cost a couple thousands.

Vancouver isn't really cold and some commute are reachable, If one can get a leaf that is at 10K that does 80km just commute to/from work....Could easily make the car free in two years.

The main issue of first-gen Leaf, from what I gathered is 2 parts:

1. There is no active cooling/heating solution for the batteries. Thus, the battery pack itself suffers a lot of stress from day to day operation, especially in areas where you experience either extreme cold or hot climate.

2. This is the big one, it has a very small battery, a mere 24kwh. And even the best batteries out there are only designed with 1000-1600 cycles (where a battery tops up and drains completely). In larger pack cars like Tesla, the cycle can be better managed as you are spreading onto larger amount of batteries. With Leaf having so few of them, that 1000 cycles go pretty fast since you always need all of them to drive any meaningful distance.

[M Speed]

None of the Leafs have active thermal management. But it is also has the best track record of no burn down your house. 24kwh are from 2011-2015, real world consumption on average would be 4-5km/kW which will still give the oldest leaf qt 70% capacity a 60-70km range. Imagine the time one saved on commute from ladner/Richmond using hov for $10K. Definitely not for everyone but if it work (charger at work and home)…one would get a very cheap and reliable vehicle. Plus there are local shop that will upgrade to 30kwh or 40kwh starting from 12K.

[GLOW]

i recall seeing used e-golf for pretty cheap ~$20K or so.

they look similar to normal golfs, figure that's a nicer looking option than a 1st gen leaf, but haven't heard too much about them.

[!Aznboi128]

^ not anymore, prices have gone up.

For 20k you can get 1st gen Leaf, BMW i3, Kia Soul or the 500e.

[BlackV62K2]

Are dealerships for car companies like Hyundai, Ford, Audi putting crazy markups on EVs? One thing Tesla got right is the direct to consumer sales.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by M Speed

Could you name some example of the leaf battery issues? From all the EVs on the market, Nissan is the only manufacturer that has not recall battery. Yes leafs are not great on range or charge speed, but they are cheap to own, hov access, hell even buy an eBike cost a couple thousands.

Vancouver isn't really cold and some commute are reachable, If one can get a leaf that is at 10K that does 80km just commute to/from work....Could easily make the car free in two years.

As already stated, the first gen leaf has horrendously low range and as it doesn't manage the heating/cooling of the battery, the batteries degrade far faster than other vehicles on the market. The biggest issue for me with the leaf, i3 and other EV's marketed at short commutes is that they almost force you to have to rely on an ICE vehicle when you want to go out of town.

My comment of getting as much range as you can afford is really good advice when it comes to EV's.

As for a big benefit I didn't mention before with Tesla's is the charging network. It is a phenomenal bonus to owning a tesla and any company that relies on a network that is not the Tesla network will never be able to compete with Tesla. I have heard that VW might be signing on to the Tesla charging network and this would be a huge coup for them to be able to compete with Tesla.

[!Aznboi128]

Tesla charging network is nice but I wouldn't say that's the thing to rely on.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-main-...ork-1840110802

[M Speed]

Originally Posted by Koflach

As already stated, the first gen leaf has horrendously low range and as it doesn't manage the heating/cooling of the battery, the batteries degrade far faster than other vehicles on the market. The biggest issue for me with the leaf, i3 and other EV's marketed at short commutes is that they almost force you to have to rely on an ICE vehicle when you want to go out of town.

My comment of getting as much range as you can afford is really good advice when it comes to EV's.

As for a big benefit I didn't mention before with Tesla's is the charging network. It is a phenomenal bonus to owning a tesla and any company that relies on a network that is not the Tesla network will never be able to compete with Tesla. I have heard that VW might be signing on to the Tesla charging network and this would be a huge coup for them to be able to compete with Tesla.

I beg to differ. Tesla is great and all but the premium of having 400+km isn't necessary too most. Its like telling one to buy the most powerful ICE you can afford. No one road trip every month, so rule of thumb for buying EV is double your regular commute. Extreme weather take a huge chunk off the range so with double the range of one's commute, there is no range anxiety.

The difference between a leaf and any 400+km EV is $8000 +/-…I am pretty sure many if not most don't drive 150km on a round trip commute.

[!Aznboi128]

I honestly think it'll be possible for me and my family to get a 100km range EV as our one and only car. If I need to go further, I can always boring my parents/inlaws, modo, there're plenty of options.

Don't remember the last time I drove over 100km on a single trip.

[MaceWindu]

Originally Posted by BlackV62K2

Are dealerships for car companies like Hyundai, Ford, Audi putting crazy markups on EVs? One thing Tesla got right is the direct to consumer sales.

I'm picking up an Ioniq 5 from OpenRoad Richmond Hyundai, no markup. Well there's like a stupid $185 charge for nitrogen in tires, rain-x application and wheel locks but whatever.

I was reading on r/ioniq5 on reddit and there are lots of dealerships out there charging big markups but it sounds like that is mostly in the states.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by !Aznboi128

Tesla charging network is nice but I wouldn't say that's the thing to rely on.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-main-...ork-1840110802

The furthest south i've traveled using the Tesla charging network is Centralia, Washington and the furthest in Canada is Kamloops.

For Centralia, it was in January two years ago and we had to stop to charge twice on our way there. We were in the area for a baseball tournament so we stayed the weekend and in total I think we charged about 5 times total for the whole trip. I don't believe we had to wait for a spot at any of the stops and they were all in very convenient spots so we were able to go grab a quick bite to eat/use the restrooms.

For Kamloops, it was in the summertime last year and we probably could have made it in one stop but we decided to stop in Merritt to grab a bite to eat at Boston Pizza. I ended up having to leave the restaurant before our food had arrived to go unplug so I wouldn't be charged any idling fees.

I have had nothing bought very positive experiences in 3.5 years using the Tesla network and the few times i've used non-tesla charging spots, they've either been out of service or I needed to download an app, create an account and then put a minimum amount of funds on the account. With the Tesla network you pull up, plug in and when it's done you unplug and drive away. Everything automatically charges the credit card you have on file and there is no additional logging into an app needed.

[TypeRNammer]

Originally Posted by !Aznboi128

I honestly think it'll be possible for me and my family to get a 100km range EV as our one and only car. If I need to go further, I can always boring my parents/inlaws, modo, there're plenty of options.

Don't remember the last time I drove over 100km on a single trip.

Gonna need more range than that, especially when you have to factor in cold weather.

On one of the cold days, I started the day with 90% charge. Ran a few errands, drove a total of maybe 75km and that chewed up about 50% of the battery. That includes prewarming the batteries before starting my trip, and having my climate control on full automatic. Also some stationary idling with the heat on too.

This was on the model 3 standard range.

EDIT: Ideally the Honda E would be the perfect commuter car for me, too bad it's a forbidden fruit here.

[MG1]

Originally Posted by Koflach

As for a big benefit I didn't mention before with Tesla's is the charging network. It is a phenomenal bonus to owning a tesla and any company that relies on a network that is not the Tesla network will never be able to compete with Tesla. I have heard that VW might be signing on to the Tesla charging network and this would be a huge coup for them to be able to compete with Tesla.

Volkswagen in the US offers free 3 year charging with Electrify America. I think in Canada, it's Electrify Canada. In any case, Electrify America, and I assume Electrify Canada, is owned by Volkswagen.

https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/149

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrify_America

Don't think they're gonna partner with Tesla any time soon. Plus, non-tesla cars (not all) can charge at Tesla stations.


Closest Electrify Anything station I've seen is at the Fred Meyers in Bellingham (the one by Costco).