Electric and Hybrid Car Thread

[JDMDreams]

Well the costs were actually reasonable even in 2020 until the grand reopening happened and everyone threw money around

[Traum]

Personally, I am not convinced that EV prices will meaningfully come down. Tesla has been steadily hiking its prices, and it is claiming that the price hikes were due to rising costs on their end. Then I read news reports saying that there are scarcity issues with lithium, cobalt, and a whole host of other raw materials that are needed to make batteries. Add a higher demand for EVs, and all these factors are pointing to price hikes instead of price drops.

Capacity will go up. Battery tech will improve, and we may even see future EVs being lighter than the extra porky ones we have now. But I am very skeptical that prices will drop in the near term -- or even the next few years.

Originally Posted by MarkyMark

So when you get the EV you want you basically just pay all the gas money that you'd use up front instead of over the course of 7-8 years lol

Originally Posted by 68style

For now yah... the gap is getting closer though! Prices will come down...

Besides the cost, for me, I won't adopt now because to me the technology is in its infancy and nobody can compete with Tesla's battery and software tech, it will take other manufacturers awhile to catch up. I'd rather buy in when there's more choice, lower costs and better tech.

[JDMDreams]

^^ I don't see gas prices meaningfully fall too, supply, war, protestors so take your pick

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Traum

Personally, I am not convinced that EV prices will meaningfully come down.

Second this.

With every manufacturer ramping up EV production, but no large scale of new battery raw material production in the foreseeable horizon, larger than norm inflation... the price war on raw materials is just starting.

And even ICE cars have gotten more and more expensive over time.

I'm sure there'd be EVs for all price segments down the road, but apple to apple, I doubt they'd get cheaper in any way. The more likely scenario is that you become more affluent to be able to afford the EV (its relative cost to you has gone down), but that's it. However, with $2+ a litre, I don't think staying on the fence is doing your finances any favor unless you decide to ditch car altogether and just wait until more affordable EVs become a reality.

[GLOW]

i've seen a couple mirai's on the road.

how viable/practical are they? are they niche or the wave of the future?

[radeonboy]

Originally Posted by GLOW

i've seen a couple mirai's on the road.

how viable/practical are they? are they niche or the wave of the future?

The link below shows the map of the fuel cell stations in the lower mainland. I can't imagine them to be too practical unless you drive short distances and live/work near one of these stations.
https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hyd...ap-canada.html

Esso 4001 Quadra St Victoria BC V8X 1K1
Shell 8686 Granville St Vancouver BC V6P 5A1
Shell 4505 Canada Way Burnaby BC V5G 1J9
Shell 344 Harbour Ave North Vancouver BC V7J 2E9
Esso 2501 Westview Dr North Vancouver BC V7N 3W9

[68style]

ICE cars have NOT gotten more expensive over time if you account for inflation, especially when you consider what you're getting for your money.

Example: I bought a 2000 Toyota Celica GT in 1999 for $23,850 (plus taxes and delivery) which, in today dollars, is $38,664. At the time, it was a front wheel drive, open diff, 5spd manual, 1.8L 140hp Corolla engine, power windows/locks/mirrors, no sunroof, no cruise control, CD/Cass, 2 airbags.

Today: A 2022 Toyota GR86 is $31,490 (plus taxes and delivery) and is rear wheel drive, limited slip diff, 6spd manual, 2.4L 228hp, power everything, cruise control, bluetooth, at least 4 airbags.

So not only is a basic sporty car from the same company a MUCH better car today with way more power, a more expensive drivetrain (rear wheel drive configuration), and safer for occupants -- it's also substantially cheaper to buy.

[Hehe]

^

I hope your income is adjusted against inflation. Last time I checked, none of my family is getting a 8% raise this year to counter the inflation.

[SumAznGuy]

If anything, it feels like some manufacturers are going to market EV's as a premium car as they add more technology and performance and raise the MSRP's.

[68style]

Originally Posted by Hehe

^

I hope your income is adjusted against inflation. Last time I checked, none of my family is getting a 8% raise this year to counter the inflation.

Hard to say, I wasn’t established / a student at the time so I’ve increased from literally no income to what I make today in that time hahaha

That said, I think it’s safe to say that’s a primary issue here vs real estate costs and other living costs… incomes from most jobs (software industry or real estate notwithstanding) have not come up enough to match inflation at all, let alone for the market we are in here.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by 68style

Hard to say, I wasn’t established / a student at the time so I’ve increased from literally no income to what I make today in that time hahaha

That said, I think it’s safe to say that’s a primary issue here vs real estate costs and other living costs… incomes from most jobs (software industry or real estate notwithstanding) have not come up enough to match inflation at all, let alone for the market we are in here.

For sure. That's what I said earlier, it's more likely you become more affluent (hence, the relative or perceived cost to EV is lower) than EV actually become cheaper.

It's all relative when it comes to valuation.

Most people felt EV was a luxury when gas was ~$1.20/L... but at $2+, driving an ICE IMHO is a luxury by itself. Think it this way... I go to Richmond about 3 times a week for gym/grocery/visit friends... that 70KM round trip (SS/WR to RMD) that I make is about $15 for any reasonably efficient car that does 10km/L overall, or close to $30 on some luxury large engine vehicles. That's just gas, no depreciation or whatever. In an EV, the same trip is about $2. (15kwh/100km, 0.15 per kw, 80% AC-DC efficiency)

The high gas price would accelerate the shift to EV at an incredible pace. Because it used to be that people stick with ICE because the initial higher cost of EV made it unreasonable. Now... the gas price is what's unreasonable.

[68style]

If I was not a car enthusiast, and I only bought new cars, EV would be a no brainer.

But I am, and I don't... so it will be a loooooooooooong time before it makes sense for me (purely from a financial perspective). Even buying a new ICE car doesn't make sense to me financially though.

[Traum]

With the amount of driving that I do -- which is actually not very much -- ICE cars are still decidedly the cheaper long term option for me at current gas prices. So if I were to rationalize it from the cost perspective alone, it wouldn't make sense for me to get into an EV any time soon.

I did a cost comparison between a Corolla and a bZX4 based on current gas prices and a 20k km annual driving distance. Even with $2+/L gas prices, it would still take 8+ years before the break even point happens for the bZX4. If gas were to double to $4+/L, then it would take 5+ years to break even.

The more you drive, the more an EV make sense (until the amount of driving exceeds your ability to L2 charge it at home). But if you ask me, the current price difference between an ICE and EV is still to large to justify it from a cost perspective.

Originally Posted by Hehe

Most people felt EV was a luxury when gas was ~$1.20/L... but at $2+, driving an ICE IMHO is a luxury by itself. Think it this way... I go to Richmond about 3 times a week for gym/grocery/visit friends... that 70KM round trip (SS/WR to RMD) that I make is about $15 for any reasonably efficient car that does 10km/L overall, or close to $30 on some luxury large engine vehicles. That's just gas, no depreciation or whatever. In an EV, the same trip is about $2. (15kwh/100km, 0.15 per kw, 80% AC-DC efficiency)

The high gas price would accelerate the shift to EV at an incredible pace. Because it used to be that people stick with ICE because the initial higher cost of EV made it unreasonable. Now... the gas price is what's unreasonable.

[Manic!]

Ford Is Going to 100% Online, Fixed-Price Sales For EVs

CEO Jim Farley says direct delivery, zero negotiation, and fully online transactions are necessary for the brand's EV business

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...o-negotiation/

[JDMDreams]

What ford EV?

[tegra7]

Impressive

[Spoon]

Originally Posted by GLOW

i've seen a couple mirai's on the road.

how viable/practical are they? are they niche or the wave of the future?

We reserved a 2019 Mirai when Toyota was clearing them out for $17,500 (tax included) last year. Took delivery this March. In terms of practicality, as long as you're located close to a fueling station and don't plan on leaving the GVRD, the Mirai will work as a daily commuter car.

In regards to the long term prospects of hydrogen vehicles? We're not all that optimistic. Looking at it from an environmental aspect, while hydrogen is oftentimes marketed as an environmentally friendly product, that's not entirely true. Right now, we're actually using blue hydrogen which is made with natural gas. Until hydrogen gets a lot more traction, we're probably quite far away from ever seeing green hydrogen; which is the end goal in terms of climate change.

The reason we bought the car was entirely based on economics. The cost of acquisition for the vehicle was very low and used cars were also selling at a premium. So after we sold our 2008 Rav4, we didn't pay much out of pocket for a vehicle that was 10 years younger. Fueling cost is much lower in comparison to gasoline ($60 for a full tank of hydrogen vs $80-90 for the Rav4) since hydrogen prices in BC are regulated by the government. While we expect prices to eventually increase, we'll enjoy the savings while it lasts.

All in all, as long as BC continues to supply hydrogen for the next 3 years and the price of fuel doesn't get too ridiculous, I'll consider this a good investment. Otherwise, my exit strategy is to just ship this down to California and hope I can recoup as much as I can.

[Spoon]

Well, as soon as I wrote that, I found this on the news.
https://betakit.com/bc-startups-kard...ion-from-feds/

FYI HTEC is the company supplying BC with hydrogen, here are the highlights:

Through the regional development agency Pacific Economic Development Agency of Canada (PacifiCan), the federal government is investing a collective $11.1 million in funding for four tech companies in British Columbia (BC).

---

Also receiving $5 million in BSP funding is HTEC. Based in Vancouver, the company designs, builds, and operates hydrogen fuel supply solutions to support the deployment of hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles.

---

Armed with fresh capital, HTEC plans to build a green hydrogen production plant in Burnaby. HTEC expects this facility to be able to produce 1000kg of hydrogen per day, which will support its current fueling stations and add additional ones. HTEC said the government grant will also help in creating 10 direct and additional indirect jobs.

Thank you Canadian taxpayers.

[JDMDreams]

Is the 22 Mirai out yet? It looks pretty cool but it's $57k on Toyota site..... Didn't see any rebates

[68style]

Aren't there only like... 2 or 3 hydrogen stations in Vancouver proper haha

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by 68style

Aren't there only like... 2 or 3 hydrogen stations in Vancouver proper haha

Only 1 in Van... 4 in the entire lower mainland IIRC.

[Hondaracer]

Spoon what’s the mileage on a tank of hydrogen?

[Spoon]

Don't have a straight answer for you since the car's primary use is for my in-laws to drive my kids to school/activities. They also fill it up as soon as it reaches about half a tank. If I had to guess though, it's likely 400km+ per tank.

[68style]

Wikipedia says 502km max range for the 1st gen Mirai

[Acura604]

Audi PHEV option?
https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van...492699566.html

- 2.0L turbo plug-in hybrid 367-hp
- 7 speed automatic
- Quattro all wheel drive
- plug in hybrid electric range ~32km
- forward emergency braking
- blind spot monitor
- lane departure warning
- adaptive cruise control
- back up camera
- front and rear parking sensors
- GPS navigation
- Bluetooth hands free and audio
- Apple Carplay
- Android Auto
- heated/cooled front seats
- heated steering wheel
- 2nd row sunshades
- 3 zone auto climate control
- panorama sunroof
- power tailgate
- smart key access
- LED headlights
- 20 inch alloy wheels


I'm aware maintenance won't be as cheap as an ACURA - got offered 47k trade in for the RDX/30k KM. but... don't know how i feel being known as 'Audi604'.