Electric and Hybrid Car Thread

[roverT]

Originally Posted by Koflach

The biggest factor that should go into any EV purchase is the charging network. For most people, they will do 90%+ of their charging at home but when you do travel, it is important to have a charging network that is fast, easy to use, reliable, and has lots of locations. Because of this, Tesla is really hard to beat.

I've had the honour/pleasure to have access to a Model X Long Range (raven chassis) for three years. It sure is a different vehicle compared to both my BMW E46M and E90d. Just being able to live and experience the "transition" has given me so much more knowledge and respect for what the vehicle is and where it's trying to go. There's no wrong answer. Whatever your source of news/politics/social media/empathy will determine what you alone, think of something.

The vehicle's charging network has been flawless in the road trips I have taken it and has taught me about how to use batteries in a greater capacity. I'm grateful for the BC expansion to be able to reach far inland with ease. I really really hope that non-Tesla networks can find a way to get their act together and make an equally strong/reliable network. I believe we need more non-Tesla EVs risking themselves to reach far and make suggestions when things aren't smooth. Rome wasn't built overnight and an EV charging network will be the same.

Last winter, I spent 10 hours in the vehicle (on the driveway) when BC Hydro was upgrading some infrastructure to support the future load of EV charging. I turned the car into my office since power was cut to the home. I kept the vehicle at 24ºC in camp mode the whole time while it was just about snow temperature outside (perfect time to cut electricity for the whole day ) and used 20% of the battery which using a 120v inverter for laptop power and phone power to tether to LTE. It would have been great if the vehicle could send power to the house like some of the newer EVs can do! At about the 7 hour mark I started seeing neighbours pulling out gas generators to power their lives as we plunged into darkness. LOL

Equally important as the charging network is an EV owner's knowledge of how to spend as little time charging as they can. When you see those "once and a while" articles of people being stuck at a supercharger waiting, I have a strong feeling man are thinking they HAVE to be fully charged before leaving. Take for example Hope, BC....if everyone just topped up for 15-25 minutes, which is all you need to get to the next or every other charger, turnover rate would be one vehicle every 30-45 seconds which is similar to a gas station at full capacity. There was a recent scenario about the UK at Christmas time where many SCs had long waits with one location only having 2 receptacles working. I believe there was a labor strike which handicapped other methods of transportation forcing people to all use cars (ICE and EV) so that was a freak cascading incident. Just don't take one article and base it as your conclusion. You owe it to yourself (and potential support) to understand a broader picture to this EV world. Good thing for us, we have this thread.

[BaoTurbo]

I was looking to supercharge one night at RC because I knew me and my buddies were going out to party and I'm the DD for the night.

Got to RC and there was a huge line up and then 3 more cars were lined up as well on top. Keep in mind it takes at least 30 minutes for each car to charge up. I turned around and left because it just doesn't make sense at all.

I can definitely see why people invest in a level 2 charger at home if it's accessible because at this rate you're potentially waiting and hour to get to a charger, and then wait for your own charge on top of it. That's a lot of time.

Another time I wanted to go to the bathroom but I also needed to charge up a bit more. There was a spot at the charging station, problem was RC was already closed and I had to go really bad, ended up charging 10 minutes and booked it back home ASAP

[roverT]

LOL Richmond Centre seems like the SC’s are constantly at capacity. They either need more stalls or to up their system to not share bandwidth with the neighbour to get people out faster. Luckily Richmond Centre isn’t usually part of a road trip charging location.

When I goto the Okanagan, I just use Hope, then Kelowna. If winter then a quickie in Merritt. To get back I’ll top up in Merritt and go straight to Surrey Guildford’s new V3 SC or a quick 5-10 mins in Hope in the winter.

[Badhobz]

I thought the whole point was to charge these things at home. The concept of using that super charger doesn’t make sense to me unless you don’t have the infrastructure at home (but then why bother buying an EV ? Isn’t it a huge hassle to go charge and sit there for 20+ minutes ? Once or twice a week ?) I just don’t get it.

[sonick]

My parents live right near Richmond Center and I SMH every time I see the lineup of teslas waiting for the chargers.

People spend the money on the Tesla yet don't value their time sitting in a lineup waiting to charge their cars.

[roverT]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

I thought the whole point was to charge these things at home. The concept of using that super charger doesn’t make sense to me unless you don’t have the infrastructure at home (but then why bother buying an EV ? Isn’t it a huge hassle to go charge and sit there for 20+ minutes ? Once or twice a week ?) I just don’t get it.

There are a lot of people that haven't either transitioned to level 2 at their home, don't have access to level 2 at their home/work, needed a few mins to top-up because they're going outside their range and/or using their free supercharger credits. One size doesn't fit all in whatever non-EV users think are definite categories.

The car I use gets unlimited supercharging so if I'm going to spend 20 minutes being on my phone fcking around then I'll just do it while I'm out running errands. For me, spending time charging is just transferring what I'd normally do at home, at a supercharger location. But more often than not there are places I can go to run a quick errand. Surrey has a Save-on-foods right there and some restaurants, Coquitlam has groceries and a Canadian Tire, Burnaby has the mall. But this is only from one individual point of view.

While in the 1800s, you could feed your mode of transport at home with hay and a water trough. Then in the 1900s as the ICE took over, you had feed your vehicle outside of home. Now we're beginning of going back to being able to feed your vehicle at home or elsewhere. None of these modes of transports are the same. It's best not to compare but to find ways in how to take advantage of each method and work with changing times. I'm sure Amish are still able to coexist in their horse and buggy with a loud ICE on the path. LOL

[Badhobz]

its not like these charges are free either. Fast charging also damages your battery (supposedly.... at least it does on your phone lith-ion batteries so im pretty sure it also damages your tesla batteries). So much so that Toyota's Bz4xyz doesnt recommend anything past 240v charging.

If the charging station is full, your shit outta luck. Its not like the gas station where you can just easily hop to the next one and even if you dont, the turn around times are fast at gas stations vs 20-30 minutes at EV stations.

In my mind these are all insanities that doesnt make any sense considering that im paying a minimal of 50k+ and im left with a car that ISNT any cheaper, i still have to pay for something, whether electricity or gas and now i have to either trip over my own EV cord at home everyday, or go lineup with the idiots at richmond centre to fill up my ride. WHY DO THIS!? it boggles my simple ass brain.

[roverT]

I've never waited 20-30 mins at a completely full supercharger. Maybe because I don't do it often enough. Every time I'm at a full charger, the most I've waited is 5 minutes with 8 cars in front. Cars are in and out very quick most of the time.

Fast charge longevity is a lot about who programmed the battery management system. Heat is what degrades a battery. Charging speed is also a factor if you don't lower it when it gets too hot or is too cold. If the system can manage heat, then the longevity of the battery will be increased. When I bring the Tesla on a cold battery to a supercharger within 5 minutes of cold start, it'll charge much slower than if it was heated up from driving the vehicle for 20 minutes and proactively pre-conditioned for fast charge by inputing the charging destination into navigation. Toyota may know something more about Lithium battery tech which I haven't personally researched so we'll see what happens in the longterm.

My iPhone 7 Plus had little charging optimization back in the day. It was always trying to charge to 100% as quick as it can even if it heated up the battery. I noticed battery degradation within a 12-18 months and battery replacement within 24 months. My iPhone 11 Pro on the other hand has much better charging optimization and it really slows it's role at 80% to 100%. It's been 4 years now and battery health is still at 94% with hardly any sign of degradation. Charging Lithium-Ion has truly changed!

Newer 2022 Model 3s and Ys are using LiFePO4 battery tech which its charging maintenance is a bit different (and easier) than the previous battery with higher nickel and/or cobalt concentrations...

[Koflach]

I have been driving an EV for over 4 years now and have had a 240v charger in my garage from day 1. 99% of my charging is done at home and for the few times I have had to use a supercharger, there have been minimal lineups that i've had to deal with, maybe that's because I avoid Richmond like the plague. When I have run into lineups (mostly in the states and on weekends) it is about 5-10 minutes max until it's my turn.

If you don't have a 240v or better charger at home or work, I wouldn't recommend getting an EV as just charging at superchargers is not good for your battery and can reduce the life of it prematurely.

Having the convenience to go to your garage, plug the car in and then wake up the next morning with a full charge (or 85% in my case) is amazing.

As for the cost of an EV vs the cost of an ICE vehicle, my last ICE car was a 2014 Hyundai Sonata. I had it finance over 60 months and when I bought my first EV in 2018, it was at worst the same total cost of ownership per month and at best about $100-$150/ month cheaper to get the EV. This was taking into account the price of gas ($1.50/litre at the time), insurance, & monthly payment (even though I only had about 12 months left on my Hyundai, I would have gotten a new car shortly after I paid it off). What I didn't take into account was maintenance (oil changes, brakes, others...) because I didn't have all the numbers readily available for maintenance on my Hyundai nor did I know what to expect with an EV. That being said, in 4 years I have spent next to nothing on maintenance with an EV (cabin air filter twice, washer fluid, wipers).

[Badhobz]

Originally Posted by Koflach

I have been driving an EV for over 4 years now and have had a 240v charger in my garage from day 1. 99% of my charging is done at home and for the few times I have had to use a supercharger, there have been minimal lineups that i've had to deal with, maybe that's because I avoid Richmond like the plague. When I have run into lineups (mostly in the states and on weekends) it is about 5-10 minutes max until it's my turn.

If you don't have a 240v or better charger at home or work, I wouldn't recommend getting an EV as just charging at superchargers is not good for your battery and can reduce the life of it prematurely.

Having the convenience to go to your garage, plug the car in and then wake up the next morning with a full charge (or 85% in my case) is amazing.

As for the cost of an EV vs the cost of an ICE vehicle, my last ICE car was a 2014 Hyundai Sonata. I had it finance over 60 months and when I bought my first EV in 2018, it was at worst the same total cost of ownership per month and at best about $100-$150/ month cheaper to get the EV. This was taking into account the price of gas ($1.50/litre at the time), insurance, & monthly payment (even though I only had about 12 months left on my Hyundai, I would have gotten a new car shortly after I paid it off). What I didn't take into account was maintenance (oil changes, brakes, others...) because I didn't have all the numbers readily available for maintenance on my Hyundai nor did I know what to expect with an EV. That being said, in 4 years I have spent next to nothing on maintenance with an EV (cabin air filter twice, washer fluid, wipers).

Exactly! if you dont have the infrastructure at home then EV's make little to sense. obviously these wackjobs who are lining up at Richmond Centre dont have it at home, otherwise why would anyone subject themselves to such a bs experience.

[whitev70r]

Damn uber ballers be delivering my food in a Tesla 3 !! But I guess that's the best car to do uber ... maybe 2nd best to Prius.

[Manic!]

My dad only charges at home on 120V but that's enough for the amount of driving he does. He did also get 10000 Km in free charging that expires in a year so he will be talking advantage of that.

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by Koflach

As for the cost of an EV vs the cost of an ICE vehicle, my last ICE car was a 2014 Hyundai Sonata. I had it finance over 60 months and when I bought my first EV in 2018, it was at worst the same total cost of ownership per month and at best about $100-$150/ month cheaper to get the EV. This was taking into account the price of gas ($1.50/litre at the time), insurance, & monthly payment (even though I only had about 12 months left on my Hyundai, I would have gotten a new car shortly after I paid it off). What I didn't take into account was maintenance (oil changes, brakes, others...) because I didn't have all the numbers readily available for maintenance on my Hyundai nor did I know what to expect with an EV. That being said, in 4 years I have spent next to nothing on maintenance with an EV (cabin air filter twice, washer fluid, wipers).

interesting comparison, i have a 2013 sonata so this info is pretty useful.
but pre-pandemic we did 15k/year on it at most and now it's under 10k forsure...more like 5-7k kms... i don't think i'll see the same savings as you though.

[68style]

Did you remember to factor in that a 2014 Sonata cost like $30,000 though? That's half the price of a Tesla.

[Badhobz]

yes im pretty sure the math doesnt add up.

- 50k+ for the model 3
- 2-5k for the 240v charger extra inside the house
- maybe 40 bucks a month extra on electricity for said charging? i dont know, somebody add that in

vs
20-30k for a ICE car
200-300 bucks a month for gas
1k a year (if its relatively new) for maintenance

youre still 20k under the model 3. With gas being at 1.70 thats still ~11,000Litres of fuel before you break even w/ the model 3. More if the model 3 ever needs a battery replacement or has major faults like my buddy's model X that needed his entire infotainment ripped out and replaced due to a bad screen (4000 dollar bill, if i recall, or it could have been 8k i dont remember).

==========

Just looking at our household's own needs

Our Lexus RX vs Tesla Model Y. Costs about the same out of the door at 80k+ but the RX is a bit bigger, more reliable, can road trip easier due to ICE, has things like thigh cushion extension (i dont think tesla's have this) and can tow 3500lb without much hiccup. Given that my dad's 400h is from 2008, im pretty sure our new RX will last at least 10+ years whereas i hardly see any of those older model S's around anymore. Battery replacements for Tesla are insanely expensive out of warranty (12-14k usd). Plus you have to deal with plugging in your car everyday, and/or finding a charger. She leaves her car out on the driveway so that means i gotta run a cord out from the garage to her car. Seems really inconvenient to me.

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/...ost-explained/

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by GLOW

interesting comparison, i have a 2013 sonata so this info is pretty useful.
but pre-pandemic we did 15k/year on it at most and now it's under 10k forsure...more like 5-7k kms... i don't think i'll see the same savings as you though.

No, you wouldn't see the same savings at all, it would cost you more most likely. I travel about 20-25k km per year.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by 68style

Did you remember to factor in that a 2014 Sonata cost like $30,000 though? That's half the price of a Tesla.

Yes, you must have missed the part where I spoke about the cost of financing my sonata. If you do enough driving, it's quite easy to justify an EV.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

yes im pretty sure the math doesnt add up.

- 50k+ for the model 3
- 2-5k for the 240v charger extra inside the house
- maybe 40 bucks a month extra on electricity for said charging? i dont know, somebody add that in

vs
20-30k for a ICE car
200-300 bucks a month for gas
1k a year (if its relatively new) for maintenance

youre still 20k under the model 3. With gas being at 1.70 thats still ~11,000Litres of fuel before you break even w/ the model 3. More if the model 3 ever needs a battery replacement or has major faults like my buddy's model X that needed his entire infotainment ripped out and replaced due to a bad screen (4000 dollar bill, if i recall, or it could have been 8k i dont remember).

==========

Just looking at our household's own needs

Our Lexus RX vs Tesla Model Y. Costs about the same out of the door at 80k+ but the RX is a bit bigger, more reliable, can road trip easier due to ICE, has things like thigh cushion extension (i dont think tesla's have this) and can tow 3500lb without much hiccup. Given that my dad's 400h is from 2008, im pretty sure our new RX will last at least 10+ years whereas i hardly see any of those older model S's around anymore. Battery replacements for Tesla are insanely expensive out of warranty (12-14k usd). Plus you have to deal with plugging in your car everyday, and/or finding a charger. She leaves her car out on the driveway so that means i gotta run a cord out from the garage to her car. Seems really inconvenient to me.

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/...ost-explained/

The math adds up just fine, when you look at the total cost of ownership per month, it worked out to be cheaper for me. Keep in mind, my calculations were from 4 years ago. If it doesn't work for you, that's okay.

Using my wife as an example with a little more details as she just bought an ID4. These are VERY rough numbers and I'm only looking at hard numbers, not "what if's" like your comment about battery replacement. I'm fairly sure you don't think about the cost of an engine replacement when you buy an ice car.

She drives about 100km per day for her commute to work and about another 100km per weekend on average. Her last car was a 2012 Kia Sorento and for this comparison, I am using a 2022 Sorento to compare the cost as she was buying a new SUV regardless of gas or electric. I also used a cost of $1.75/litre for gas.

The pre tax amount of the 2022 id4 awd with statement package is about $52995, financed through VW this works out to around $820 per month over 84 months. Add another $50 for electricity per month and your at around $870/month. Taxes are not included here.

A 2022 Sorento LX with no other options is about $561/month without tax according over 84 months to their website. Based on 11 litres /100 km and a tank size of 67 litres, she would spend roughly $550 per month on fuel. This brings the total monthly spend for just gas and car payment to $1111.00.

The cost of the Sorento is about $241 per month more than the id4 based on this info. We already have an ev charger at our house (that cost nowhere near what you estimated) but her car did still come with one you can connect to a 240v outlet.

EV's cost more up front but are a lot less to operate. If you drive enough, they are easy to justify.

[68style]

I would say your example is on the extreme end. 100km a day commuting is very egregious and far beyond the norm, but it definitely works out for you cost-wise that's for sure.

For an average person it isn't even close for like 10+ years until upfront costs come down significantly (which they will!)

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by 68style

I would say your example is on the extreme end. 100km a day commuting is very egregious and far beyond the norm.

Regardless, that's what she drives. I can only go based on what I know. If you drove half of what she does, it'd come out to a difference of about $34 per month in favour of the Kia but once you're done paying off the car, the monthly costs of the EV are next to nothing compared to the kia.

According to Canada Drives, the average Canadian travels 15-20k km per year. Some drive more, some drive less. She drives about 30k/ year but for the average Canadian it's still doable when you look at the total costs.

[Badhobz]

Your case is extreme, but i dont think my math is wrong on the ICE vs Electric.

Fine you dont count for major failures like battery replacements, youre still at a 20k disparity between ICE and EV. You factor in the gas, and it doesnt make much sense for most people. Even worse are people like Manic's dad who can CHARGE ON 120v because he drives so little.

==============
- 50k+ for the model 3
- 2-5k for the 240v charger extra inside the house
- maybe 40 bucks a month extra on electricity for said charging? i dont know, somebody add that in

vs
20-30k for a ICE car
200-300 bucks a month for gas
1k a year (if its relatively new) for maintenance

youre still 20k under the model 3. With gas being at 1.70 thats still ~11,000Litres of fuel before you break even w/ the model 3.

[Badhobz]

i sound like a nay say-er but i do believe these EV's are going to be the future. That or a PHEV with extended range so its the best of both worlds. But until the prices come down and the adoption isnt annoying it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think the reason why so many people bought it is because its the new fangled thing. Its more of an image purchase than a value proposition. Those gimmicky features in the Tesla are fun to play around with once or twice but then you'll never use it again.

Best case scenario would be they come up with a sub 30k EV that has 500km of range. Basically an electric ratrolla. Whoever makes that first will win the EV wars.

[sonick]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

i sound like a nay say-er but i do believe these EV's are going to be the future. That or a PHEV with extended range so its the best of both worlds. But until the prices come down and the adoption isnt annoying it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think the reason why so many people bought it is because its the new fangled thing. Its more of an image purchase than a value proposition. Those gimmicky features in the Tesla are fun to play around with once or twice but then you'll never use it again.

Best case scenario would be they come up with a sub 30k EV that has 500km of range. Basically an electric ratrolla. Whoever makes that first will win the EV wars.

Spot on with all of this, same here. People buying electric cars these days come off as more of a flex and virtue signaling, since the value proposition isn't there for most (excluding cases like where you're driving 100km a day) when compared to ICE.

As for PHEV, at the prices they are going for I'd say they could also be considered the worst of both worlds. Price premium of an EV but all of the gas and maintenance of an ICE.

[68style]

I can't even consider my own situation, I always buy used cars that are older and I refer manual transmission... so I'm literally the antichrist of potential EV buyers.

There is zero justification for me until they make gas impossible to buy or I suddenly start caring about my car being super new and luxurious.

[whitev70r]

If this guy can do it ... so can you!

He sleeps in a van but drives a Tesla: life on wheels in Vancouver's camper community



He spends most of his life on wheels, working as an Uber driver in his leased Tesla. He’s trying to get ahead, and lives in his “sweet motor home” while taking online courses in the hope of getting a job in computer science.

Philips, who immigrated from Turkey five years ago, thinks himself lucky to share the view with mansion owners without draining his savings.

He’s a member of a community of Vancouverites living in vans, trailers and other recreational vehicles parked across the city.

Some, like Philips, use it as an economic strategy to cut costs as they plot a course to prosperity.