Electric and Hybrid Car Thread

[Badhobz]

Or if you get a shanghainese girlfriend and she’ll force you to get rid of all this old trash and buy a electric car for her to cry in.

[Badhobz]

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-buyers-ca...eel-1849958697

Looks like they are adding a traditional wheel back in at no extra charge. Fuck You Elon. Fuck you and your gimmicky crap.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-buyers-ca...eel-1849958697

Looks like they are adding a traditional wheel back in at no extra charge. Fuck You Elon. Fuck you and your gimmicky crap.

I thought I would hate the yolk but I really like it. It provides a lot of viability.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

Your case is extreme, but i dont think my math is wrong on the ICE vs Electric.

Fine you dont count for major failures like battery replacements, youre still at a 20k disparity between ICE and EV. You factor in the gas, and it doesnt make much sense for most people. Even worse are people like Manic's dad who can CHARGE ON 120v because he drives so little.

==============
- 50k+ for the model 3
- 2-5k for the 240v charger extra inside the house
- maybe 40 bucks a month extra on electricity for said charging? i dont know, somebody add that in

vs
20-30k for a ICE car
200-300 bucks a month for gas
1k a year (if its relatively new) for maintenance

youre still 20k under the model 3. With gas being at 1.70 thats still ~11,000Litres of fuel before you break even w/ the model 3.

I'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just saying you're not as right as me. The numbers you are using are very generic and hold no weight as there is no substance behind them. I am using specific numbers though.

For arguments sake though, let's use your numbers and look into them a little further to get an idea about the true cost of ownership as the purchase price doesn't say everything.

A brand new base Tesla Model 3 cost $59990.
Electricity is about $40-$50/month (based on my own experience of driving 20-25k km per year)

Just these two numbers alone equal a total cost of ownership of $64,310 (based on $45/month for electricity) over 8 years

Your brand new mystery car is $30,000
It costs $300/month on gas.
over 8 years this $30,000 car now has cost you $58,800 or $5,510 less than a Tesla Model 3, not as great as the $20k claim you make but still less than a Tesla.

Now, looking at a more real world comparison.

In 2021, the Model 3 was the 5th best selling new car in Canada only being beaten out by the Kia Forte, Hyundai Elantra, Toyota Corolla and the Honda Civic. For this exercise, I will use the Civic (even though they are not in the same class of vehicle as the Model 3),

The Honda Civic Sport with no options costs $32180 +tax. Over 84 months you will pay $479.99 per month. When you add in the $300/month in gas it brings you to $779.99 per month.

The Model 3 will cost $725/month to $45 per month in electricity for a total of $770 per month.

These numbers are readily available for you to see online, i'm not hiding anything and they are real numbers, not me throwing shit against a wall.

All that being said, the civic is not a comparable car to the Model 3 so this isn't exactly the best comparison but more of an extreme one. The Honda Accord ex-l is more comparable and would cost $38,518.00 or $564.91 per month plus tax or $864.91 including the $300 in gas.

My point here is this, regardless of what new car you are looking at, the biggest variable is the gas. The more that you drive, the more you will spend on gas and that makes an EV far more attractive. Also, once both cars have been paid off after 8 years, you still have to spend $300/month on gas for the ICE car but the EV will still only cost about $45/month thus making it even more attractive.

Oh yeah, the average price of a new vehicle in Canada is now around $45,000, far from the $20-30k you show above.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-buyers-ca...eel-1849958697

Looks like they are adding a traditional wheel back in at no extra charge. Fuck You Elon. Fuck you and your gimmicky crap.

I think it's great that Tesla has offered the option. Some people like the yolk, others, not so much.

[ssjGoku69]

Originally Posted by Koflach

The Honda Civic Sport with no options costs $32180 +tax. Over 84 months you will pay $479.99 per month. When you add in the $300/month in gas it brings you to $779.99 per month.

The Model 3 will cost $725/month to $45 per month in electricity for a total of $770 per month.

So if someone is cross shopping between a Model 3 and a Civic Sport, then it seems like the break-even for monthly operating/running costs would be if they drive ~30,000km per year at $1.75/L gas price.

[Alpine]

My wife's comparison:

2023 WRX/GTI: $40k. $2/L @ 15k km/yr = $3k in fuel/yr or $250/month. $800/mo financing before tax over 60 months + gas = $1050/mo before taxes.
2023 Model 3: $60k. $1200/mo financing before tax over 60 months. Model 3 @ $55k = $1100/mo before taxes which is basically equivalent to the ICE car before factoring in other consumables and maintenance. But if the Model 3 is $55k (ie. the i4, ev6, ioniq5, etc), then it qualifies for the ~8k rebate which makes it significantly cheaper.

Remove the rebate and the breakeven point between and ICE and EV Sedan is $15k (over 5 years) in our books. Include the rebate, and the breakeven point is $23k (over 5 years).

Civic sport @ $32k is roughly equivalent to a $50-55k EV (with rebates) over 5 years, which is basically a long-range AWD ioniq5 or ev6.

[Badhobz]

A brand new base Tesla Model 3 cost $59990.
Electricity is about $40-$50/month (based on my own experience of driving 20-25k km per year)

Just these two numbers alone equal a total cost of ownership of $64,310 (based on $45/month for electricity) over 8 years

Your brand new mystery car is $30,000
It costs $300/month on gas.
over 8 years this $30,000 car now has cost you $58,800 or $5,510 less than a Tesla Model 3, not as great as the $20k claim you make but still less than a Tesla.

=============

So in this example that you went more in-depth on. It still takes 8 years of constant of 300 bucks a month worth of gas just to end up still cheaper than the model 3 by 5 grand. 8 stinking years.

You need to drive like an Uber fucker to make this value proposition make any sense and even then I’m still left with a piece of shit I have to trip over everyday or go sit somewhere and charge everyday. In 8 years I’m pretty sure the ratrolla or Camry will still hold up better than the model 3.

[mikemhg]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

i sound like a nay say-er but i do believe these EV's are going to be the future. That or a PHEV with extended range so its the best of both worlds. But until the prices come down and the adoption isnt annoying it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think the reason why so many people bought it is because its the new fangled thing. Its more of an image purchase than a value proposition. Those gimmicky features in the Tesla are fun to play around with once or twice but then you'll never use it again.

Best case scenario would be they come up with a sub 30k EV that has 500km of range. Basically an electric ratrolla. Whoever makes that first will win the EV wars.

I'm with you on this, and once again everyone posting in this thread who own EVs seem to live in a house.

Guess what, we have a housing crisis in this city, many of us don't live in houses, but in condos. How does the migration to EV work for condo dwellers? Tons of strata's don't want to pay the cost to install chargers in their buildings, the ones that do might have a handful of them.

Imagine if 70%+ of a building's occupants migrated to EVs from ICE, how would they be able to charge them at home (if that's our goal by 2035).

It's illogical without massive changes.

[Badhobz]

My dad's apartment in east van is getting EV chargers putting in. Guess how much they are going to assess each resident per use.... almost 10 dollars per charge. Plus they all had to fork over 5k per unit to get these damn things installed. Im pretty sure his garage will still consist of 90% ICE cars as so far only 2-3 Tesla's are downstairs. Only reason it pushed through is because the strata council convinced all the owners that it'll up their property value having EV support (i do agree).

[68style]

I wouldn't be able to charge one at home without quite a lot of cost and my building isn't even very old. We have a few chargers in some visitor's spots they converted over... I gather the rates are quite high to charge there though, I hardly ever see them in use. There are quite a few Tesla's in my building though.

[Badhobz]

Originally Posted by 68style

I wouldn't be able to charge one at home without quite a lot of cost and my building isn't even very old. We have a few chargers in some visitor's spots they converted over... I gather the rates are quite high to charge there though, I hardly ever see them in use. There are quite a few Tesla's in my building though.

must be the same group that runs over to richmond centre to charge up.

[68style]

I noticed last night that Ironwood had a bank of actual Tesla branded chargers near the McDonald's... only 1 car using them. Probably a good spot to charge in the evening if need be.

[Badhobz]

if they had any sense, they would put up chargers next to swan lake. 20-30 minutes is perfect.

[TypeRNammer]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

Exactly! if you dont have the infrastructure at home then EV's make little to sense. obviously these wackjobs who are lining up at Richmond Centre dont have it at home, otherwise why would anyone subject themselves to such a bs experience.

We owned our Model 3 for 3 years now, average 20 to 22k mileage per year and got away with 120v charging.

But yes, infrastructure makes a HUGE difference for your home.

Our garage is torn down to make room for a laneway house, and without a spot to plug in the car, I'm forced to use the supercharger network which doesn't help with the cost savings of driving the car.

The current price to drive ratio is equivalent to a regular Prius Hybrid.

[Badhobz]

i cant believe that loaf of bread is 60k now. didnt they used to be like 45k? when did they add full self driving for 19k!!!!!?!??!?! wtf are they smoking

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

A brand new base Tesla Model 3 cost $59990.
Electricity is about $40-$50/month (based on my own experience of driving 20-25k km per year)

Just these two numbers alone equal a total cost of ownership of $64,310 (based on $45/month for electricity) over 8 years

Your brand new mystery car is $30,000
It costs $300/month on gas.
over 8 years this $30,000 car now has cost you $58,800 or $5,510 less than a Tesla Model 3, not as great as the $20k claim you make but still less than a Tesla.

=============

So in this example that you went more in-depth on. It still takes 8 years of constant of 300 bucks a month worth of gas just to end up still cheaper than the model 3 by 5 grand. 8 stinking years.

You need to drive like an Uber fucker to make this value proposition make any sense and even then I’m still left with a piece of shit I have to trip over everyday or go sit somewhere and charge everyday. In 8 years I’m pretty sure the ratrolla or Camry will still hold up better than the model 3.

You are not adding all the oil changes, brakes and all the services an ICE requires over the time of service. I ran the math by doing everything at dealership/service center... nothing matches Model 3 using 10yr service life where I assign 0 value at the end of 10yrs for both for simplicity's sake.

Math is quite simple.

24,000km/yr at an average 8L/100km@$1.4/L=2688
24,000km/yr at an average 120wh/km at 80% efficiency (usually higher at 90%+, I just used the harshest figure I could find)@0.14/kW=504

Average yearly maintenance cost for Corolla for 10yrs: 1200 or something like that IIRC, quoted from a local Toyota dealer for everything logical on the schedule maintenance. I said logical because they have a "recommended" schedule that's 1.5x the price.
Average yearly maintenance cost for Model 3 for 10yrs: 450, again, every item on the maintenance schedule

Price out of door: 35k for Corolla, 54k for Model 3.
Cost of operation for 4yrs:
Corolla: 35,000+(2688*10)+(1200*10)=73880
Model 3: 54,000+(504*10)+(450*10)=63900

Yes, we need to change a little bit as price of Model 3 has gone up, but so has gas. And I based my math on gas at 1.4/L. I'm quite sure the current gas price more than cover that difference. Camry is a lot more than that. And if we get into luxury car brands (Lexus, BMW... etc) the difference only grows from there.

Tl;dr - buying a new ICE today is really a luxury. I didn't buy Model 3 because I was balling or anything like that. It was the cheapest option to operate/own when comparing all the cars on the market that I have interest. There is not a SINGLE ICE car you can name on the market today that will come out ahead of a Model 3 in 10yrs. And none of the options that come close to it would have the performance of a Model 3 because they are all basic or hybrid cars designed for grannies. Any ICE car I can think of that's at least not granny would cost a LOT more to operate/own than a Model 3.

I'm genuinely interested to know about an ICE option that's exciting to drive and doesn't cost too much to own. But it's something I couldn't find 3yrs ago and I don't recall anything that came out during the last 3yrs that changed that.

[Badhobz]

which corolla is 35k!?

Ill just go with the most popular ratrolla, the LE CVT. 25k base, 29,752.80 w/ taxes pdi, etc

then throw in Model 3 base, with no additional options. 60k base, $68189.00 w/ luxury taxes pdi, etc

the difference there is already $38,436.

maintenance on the ratrolla (i had 2 of them before) isnt 1k a year, but sure 1k a year.
10 years, 10k, now your difference is 28,436. Add in the gas you figured at 3k a year (higher estimate) 10 years, you at 30k worth of gas. YOU JUST BROKE EVEN to the loaf of bread model 3. IN 10 years. 10 FUCKING YEARS.

call a spade a spade okay, if youre buying EV's in this climate, you arent saving money unless your doing uber-ish miles everyday.

Just rerun your math with the actual price of the cars today

Corolla: 30,000+(2688*10)+(1200*10)=72,000
Model 3: 68,200+(504*10)+(450*10)= 77,400

So 10 years later, ratrolla is still cheaper. Upfront is cheaper.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by TypeRNammer

We owned our Model 3 for 3 years now, average 20 to 22k mileage per year and got away with 120v charging.

But yes, infrastructure makes a HUGE difference for your home.

Our garage is torn down to make room for a laneway house, and without a spot to plug in the car, I'm forced to use the supercharger network which doesn't help with the cost savings of driving the car.

The current price to drive ratio is equivalent to a regular Prius Hybrid.

Just run an extension cord. You don't have any outside plugs?

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

which corolla is 35k!?

Ill just go with the most popular ratrolla, the LE CVT. 25k base, 29,752.80 w/ taxes pdi, etc

then throw in Model 3 base, with no additional options. 60k base, $68189.00 w/ luxury taxes pdi, etc

the difference there is already $38,436.

maintenance on the ratrolla (i had 2 of them before) isnt 1k a year, but sure 1k a year.
10 years, 10k, now your difference is 28,436. Add in the gas you figured at 3k a year (higher estimate) 10 years, you at 30k worth of gas. YOU JUST BROKE EVEN to the loaf of bread model 3. IN 10 years. 10 FUCKING YEARS.

call a spade a spade okay, if youre buying EV's in this climate, you arent saving money unless your doing uber-ish miles everyday.

Just rerun your math with the actual price of the cars today

Corolla: 30,000+(2688*10)+(1200*10)=72,000
Model 3: 68,200+(504*10)+(450*10)= 77,400

That's the price for a Corolla with most of "luxury" options we wanted back then when Model 3 came standard. Even today... the top 2 tier Corolla (either Hybrid or non-Hybrid) that basically has those options included runs for 33k and 37k before taxes respectively before any dealer markup.

Again, you can go really cheap and find a barebone car that would have nothing but something to get you from point A to B... but for a full option car, which all Tesla come standard, you are not going to get anything for 30k after tax. And if you really want to update the pricing to today, the gas today is 163.9... so, the yearly gas figure becomes 3147/yr. Or 31470 for 10yrs. You are not really coming out ahead.

[Badhobz]

dude if you considered "full option" then of course you cant compare. That Telsa does 0-60 in 5 seconds. my ratrolla does it in 10 seconds. That tesla has fart mode, my ratrolla you can fart into.

Why would anyone spec out a ratrolla and think its even remotely close to a model 3? even the most luxurious ratrolla is a joke of a car. I just picked it out because you guys keep saying no ICE can compare to the cost savings of your tesla. Well clearly there is, and given that the LE is the best seller for corolla's it makes the comparison.

Of course you cant compare these 2 cars directly, if you wanted something similar you would have to go a mid tier BMW 3 series to be even considerable. But at that price range, sure Tesla kills it hands down. Im just saying, you cant say ICE is a luxury and that ev's are cheapest to operate. that's just not the case.

In both use cases, im thinking the average canadian who's making 50-60k a year would much rather go with the ratrolla. Upfront costs are cheap, insurance is cheap, gas isnt too bad, and you dont have to deal with the bullshit of an EV that doesnt work in Condos or apartments. Ev's are a luxury item. trying to justify them on a value basis is bullshit right now unless you do uber-ish miles.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

dude if you considered "full option" then of course you cant compare. That Telsa does 0-60 in 5 seconds. my ratrolla does it in 10 seconds. That tesla has fart mode, my ratrolla you can fart into.

Why would anyone spec out a ratrolla and think its even remotely close to a model 3? even the most luxurious ratrolla is a joke of a car. I just picked it out because you guys keep saying no ICE can compare to the cost savings of your tesla. Well clearly there is, and given that the LE is the best seller for corolla's it makes the comparison.

Of course you cant compare these 2 cars directly, if you wanted something similar you would have to go a mid tier BMW 3 series to be even considerable. But at that price range, sure Tesla kills it hands down. Im just saying, you cant say ICE is a luxury and that ev's are cheapest to operate. that's just not the case.

You need to set a line somewhere for a relatively apple to apple comparison.

There aren't many options for Tesla except wheels and colors, and all sort of options for a Corolla. I was spec'ing for what I expected the minimum "modern necessity" for a car that I'm going to drive for the next 10yrs. Can I do without them? Sure. But then the question becomes what the fuck am I compromising for? Sacrifice all the modern standards for what? $500 saving in your scenario and hoping the average price of gas for the next 10yr doesn't go above 1.639 because then the saving starts crashing down?

I'm already using the harshest number for EV charging cost while setting the bar of gas price at 1.639 and we are in winter. You bring the $2+ gas price into, and your argument falls apart even quicker.

Again, all I'm saying is this... buying a new car today... there is no ICE car other than grannies barebone cars that can match Tesla's cost of operation. And even with grannie barebone cars, you aren't saving much. And if $2/L gas become the standard for next 10yrs... even grannie barebone cars cost more than Tesla.

[Badhobz]

It’s not apples to apples man. This is apples to oranges. Ratrolla is an econo box. Your Tesla is a pretty fast “luxury” Sedan.

That’s not the argument you presented though. You guys kept saying running EVs are cheaper than ICE. It’s not.

Standard LE already had Bluetooth, Apple car play, ac, adaptive cruise, backup cam, etc.

Only luxury features your missing out on is leather seats and a big sun roof. Oh and the performance.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

It’s not apples to apples man. This is apples to oranges. Ratrolla is an econo box. Your Tesla is a pretty fast “luxury” Sedan.

That’s not the argument you presented though. You guys kept saying running EVs are cheaper than ICE. It’s not.

Standard LE already had Bluetooth, Apple car play, ac, adaptive cruise, backup cam, etc.

Only luxury features your missing out on is leather seats and a big sun roof. Oh and the performance.

And exactly... when your econo box Ratrolla only saves $500 if the gas price stays at 1.639 for the next 10yrs on average.

Let that sink in and tell me that you are actually saving money by going with a Ratrolla?

[Badhobz]

So your argument is that all these people living in condos and apartments who make 50-60k a year should all switch to model 3s because it’ll save them money in the long run ? Fuck the fact that monthly will be almost 900 dollars vs 400 for the intial 3-4 year just so they can save gas money ?