Electric and Hybrid Car Thread

[sonick]

Comparing EV to ICE on a 10 year time horizon is ridiculous. Honestly how many ppl who are buying brand new cars are keeping their car for 10 years?

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

So your argument is that all these people living in condos and apartments who make 50-60k a year should all switch to model 3s because it’ll save them money in the long run ? Fuck the fact that monthly will be almost 900 dollars vs 400 for the intial 3-4 year just so they can save gas money ?

Don't forget resale value. Tesla is going to be worth way more 5 years later.

[LancerBoy]

Well my ICE maintenance is no where near $1200 per year. I think this is more realistic:

Annual:
Oil Change $150 x 2 = $300
Cabin Filter = $50
Brake Fluid Change = $100

Once every 5 years:
Tires = Irrelevant since EVs' need tires too
Brakes = $500 to 600
Battery = $200

Looking ahead to probably 96,000km or 8 years:
Spark Plugs/Timing belt = Let's call it $800 but why worry about this. I could surely put away $100 per year to pay for this in 8 years.

Besides, in 8 years most people will have switched for a newer car with newer tech. 8 years ago we didn't have backup cameras or adaptive cruise control which is now considered essential and standard. A valid reason to switch and not drive your car to the ground.

Personally I wouldn't keep a EV more than 8 years, let alone 10. Battery warranty will run out. EVs tech that's 8 years older, like an old cell phone, will be obsolete. And who wants to buy a used EV from 8 years ago, with no battery warranty left. Basically a ticking time bomb waiting for a $15k-20k battery swap equivalent to an inevitable engine swap. It will still be worth something, just not as much as one may think. Like those Nissan Leafs.

I want to believe in EVs. I have a deposit on an EV which should arrive this year. But sometimes I feel like I'm prepaying for gas with so many variables to be factored in (range loss due to temperature, charge stations experience, reliability), and the cost can only break even in 8 years. EVs are just too damn expensive right now and the 6.99% rates for new cars are hard to justify. Plus the fact I KNOW I'll need to replace the battery for $15-20k worries me and contradicts the gas savings.

[Badhobz]

I’m pretty sure my next vehicle to replace my Camry will be an EV but I’m waiting for the prices to drop to make it semi appetizing. Right now it’s just too easy to fill up gas on the Camry and just drive it into the ground. Unfortunately it just won’t die.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

So your argument is that all these people living in condos and apartments who make 50-60k a year should all switch to model 3s because it’ll save them money in the long run ? Fuck the fact that monthly will be almost 900 dollars vs 400 for the intial 3-4 year just so they can save gas money ?

You keep bringing more stuff into the discussion. It doesn't help you to make your argument more compelling. You are arguing that the monthly payment of a Tesla is higher while failing to recognize that people need to pay for gas/services if they do get a Corolla. They need to factor those costs into their monthly budgeting, meaning they need to put that money aside even if they aren't paying them yet.

The absolute cost of ownership is what actually matters because those are the actual $$$ coming out of one's pocket.

The absolute cost is extremely close between the 2 given the scenario you provided, a 30k barebone econobox Corolla vs. a 68k Model 3.

Corolla: 30,000+(3147*10)+(1200*10)=73,470
Model 3: 68,200+(504*10)+(450*10)= 77,400

The total difference is under 4000 for 10yrs or ~$33/mth. And for this "saving" to hold, it means gas cannot go above 1.639/L on average for the next 10yrs and one is driving a barebone econobox for that period. Even by just moving the Corolla from a barebone to a full option one (which runs at 33000+tax, or $36860), the saving is gone and Model 3 would come out ahead.

By saying one driving a Corolla only needs to pay a $xxx monthly payment vs. $yyy on a Model 3, you are purposely omitting the portion of the gas/service/whatever payment that a Corolla driver needs to budget in order to drive the car. And where the fuck is the money going to come from when the tank runs dry/needs an oil change?

I've said it before and I will reiterate: when it comes to new ICE vs. EV argument... the only way to actually come out cheaper on ICE is to take compromises. You buy a lesser/cheaper/older car and it has to be something that suck in performance because there is no way to create performance without burning fuel. You buy a car that's the same price as a Tesla, the fuel/service cost difference adds up so fast that you can pretty much get another brand new Tesla Model 3 base on the saving after 10yrs.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by LancerBoy

Well my ICE maintenance is no where near $1200 per year. I think this is more realistic:

Annual:
Oil Change $150 x 2 = $300
Cabin Filter = $50
Brake Fluid Change = $100

Once every 5 years:
Tires = Irrelevant since EVs' need tires too
Brakes = $500 to 600
Battery = $200

Looking ahead to probably 96,000km or 8 years:
Spark Plugs/Timing belt = Let's call it $800 but why worry about this. I could surely put away $100 per year to pay for this in 8 years.

Besides, in 8 years most people will have switched for a newer car with newer tech. 8 years ago we didn't have backup cameras or adaptive cruise control which is now considered essential and standard. A valid reason to switch and not drive your car to the ground.

Personally I wouldn't keep a EV more than 8 years, let alone 10. Battery warranty will run out. EVs tech that's 8 years older, like an old cell phone, will be obsolete. And who wants to buy a used EV from 8 years ago, with no battery warranty left. Basically a ticking time bomb waiting for a $15k-20k battery swap equivalent to an inevitable engine swap. It will still be worth something, just not as much as one may think. Like those Nissan Leafs.

I want to believe in EVs. I have a deposit on an EV which should arrive this year. But sometimes I feel like I'm prepaying for gas with so many variables to be factored in (range loss due to temperature, charge stations experience, reliability), and the cost can only break even in 8 years. EVs are just too damn expensive right now and the 6.99% rates for new cars are hard to justify. Plus the fact I KNOW I'll need to replace the battery for $15-20k worries me and contradicts the gas savings.

My calculation was 24,000km/yr or 240,000km at the end of it and followed the factory schedule while using the dealership/service center on both EV and ICE.

You can look up what's needed on a ICE car by going up to 240k, but all I can say is ICE becomes very expensive to service past 100k.

But the major expense for ICE is still gasoline. Even if we ignore service cost altogether, ICE is far more expensive than EV. It costs about $10-20 (depends on car) per 100km on ICE based on today's gas price. Even the most power intensive Tesla, which is the Model X at 200wh/km, it costs a whopping $2.8 for that same 100km. That's with gas at ~1.6. A few month back when gas was 2.5... the difference is even crazier.

[Badhobz]

Originally Posted by Hehe

Tl;dr - buying a new ICE today is really a luxury. I didn't buy Model 3 because I was balling or anything like that. It was the cheapest option to operate/own when comparing all the cars on the market that I have interest. There is not a SINGLE ICE car you can name on the market today that will come out ahead of a Model 3 in 10yrs. And none of the options that come close to it would have the performance of a Model 3 because they are all basic or hybrid cars designed for grannies. Any ICE car I can think of that's at least not granny would cost a LOT more to operate/own than a Model 3.

ugh, its exhausting talking to you fanboys. I dont know what the hell we are even arguing about

Edit: you know what, i dont care. enjoy your tesla. This whole thing is pointless, ill probably end up with one of these pieces of shit later anyways when the ES dies unless they can come up with a viable alternative from a more seasoned manufacturer. Im hoping Toyota does the under 30k EV w/ 500km of range but it doesnt seem like they want to go that way and insists on hybrid technology as their bread and butter.

[dark0821]

Originally Posted by Manic!

Don't forget resale value. Tesla is going to be worth way more 5 years later.

Sure tesla is worth more 5 years on... but what about 10 years on when the battery is out of warranty?

The problem is that you can save money if you drive enough or keep it long enough.

But no one, no one will keep their tesla 10+ years, the current battery dictates that they degrade (weather or not you drive a lot, or even just leave it in the garage sitting most of the year), the tech is simply not there yet.

Where as for ICE, proper maintenance means the car can run just as well at 20 years old VS 5 years old. EV cant do that...

[JDMDreams]

I think the biggest flaw in this comparison is that you're not comparing apples to apples. Someone who's buying a model 3 or y isn't gonna be like nah bro I'll stick with a base civic or CR-V cuz it's more reliable and efficient. You're at least looking at comparing operational cost/ monthly payment to something like a cla, c, 2 series x3 in that price range. Which will make ev much more cost efficient. That's like going to Gucci but end up buying a coach because it's still a bag.

[Alpine]

Instead of a corolla vs model 3 comparison, why not do a corolla vs bolt comparison?

Bolt = $42k - $8k rebate = $34k.
$870/mo after tax financed over 5 years.

Corolla LE $27k = $580/mo after tax financed over 5 years.

Gap is $300/mo, essentially gas + maintenance. Break even for first 5 years. After 5 years, bolt comes out ahead.
Heaven forbid you're feeling fancy and you step up to the LE Hybrid, that's $670/mo. The gap becomes $200/mo and the bolt comes out ahead from the get go.


Or looking at it another way, a $27k ICE costs the same as a $42k EV for the first 5 years. After 5 years, the EV comes out ahead. It's that $15k break even gap again.

[whitev70r]

if you compare any EV vs. ICE ...it will always be apples vs. orange.

[Badhobz]

I don’t think the rebates work anymore.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by LancerBoy

Tires = Irrelevant since EVs' need tires too

iirc EVs tend to go through tires faster. The only way an EV comes out ahead is if you drive *a lot*. Considering enough people are driving <5k/yr that ICBC came out with a new discount for it and they wouldn't be worth it for a lot of people.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

I don’t think the rebates work anymore.

My wife had an $8,000 rebate on her ID4 when she bought it. This wasn't even something I mentioned in my numbers.

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by underscore

iirc EVs tend to go through tires faster. The only way an EV comes out ahead is if you drive *a lot*. Considering enough people are driving <5k/yr that ICBC came out with a new discount for it and they wouldn't be worth it for a lot of people.

They go through tires just as fast as any other car i've owned. Yes, they have more torque than most ICE cars but it's all based on your driving habits.

[Badhobz]

yeah and when was that? go buy one today you get max of 4k for some people and people like me wont get jack shit all.

https://goelectricbc.gov.bc.ca/perso...hicle-rebates/

Tesla's used to give out free super charging too i recall, but that was like 2018

[sonick]

The end of the day for me is that there are some VERY GOOD reasons why EVs are attractive for many people (looks, technology, comfort, being on the leading edge, status).

That said, cost savings and convenience are NOT applicable to many, if not most people at the moment.

For some people who drive 100k a day or you drive your cars to the ground from new, yes you'll get cost savings. But most people don't.

For some people who have a dependable charging routine at home in their garage and/or at work, yes it'll be more convenient. but most people don't at the moment.

If those two don't apply to the people you are talking to trying to show them the way of the EV, then just be honest with that and not try to justify cost and convenience by coming up with all these hypothetical scenarios.

Look, it's ok to buy a car just coz it's cool shit and you kind of want to be proud that you could afford it. Look at all the people who line up to pay 4-digit figures to have the latest iPhone (or badhobz' dog's necklace). Just don't try to kid yourself or others that it's cost savings if you know you don't drive 100k a day and you've never kept a car for more than 6 years.

[Badhobz]

Originally Posted by Alpine

Instead of a corolla vs model 3 comparison, why not do a corolla vs bolt comparison?

Bolt = $42k - $8k rebate = $34k.
$870/mo after tax financed over 5 years.

Corolla LE $27k = $580/mo after tax financed over 5 years.

Gap is $300/mo, essentially gas + maintenance. Break even for first 5 years. After 5 years, bolt comes out ahead.
Heaven forbid you're feeling fancy and you step up to the LE Hybrid, that's $670/mo. The gap becomes $200/mo and the bolt comes out ahead from the get go.


Or looking at it another way, a $27k ICE costs the same as a $42k EV for the first 5 years. After 5 years, the EV comes out ahead. It's that $15k break even gap again.

4k rebates now, so your math is wrong. If you went with the hybrid ratrolla, the gas is cheaper so your math is wrong again.

[Badhobz]

Originally Posted by sonick

The end of the day for me is that while there are some VERY GOOD reasons why EVs are attractive for many people (looks, technology, comfort, being on the leading edge, status).

That said, cost savings and convenience are NOT applicable to many, if not most people at the moment.

For some people who drive 100k a day, yes you'll get cost savings. But most people don't.

For some people who have a dependable charging routine at home in their garage and/or at work, yes it'll be more convenient but most people don't at the moment.

If those two don't appy to the people you are talking to trying to show them the way of the EV, then just be honest with that and not try to justify cost and convenience by coming up with all these hypothetical scenarios.

Look, it's ok to buy a car just coz it's cool shit and you kind of want to be proud of it. Look at all the people who line up to pay 4-digit figures to have the latest iPhone (or badhobz' dog's necklace). Just don't try to kid yourself or others that it's cost savings if you know you don't drive 100k a day and you've never kept a car for more than 6 years.

Thats exactly my whole point!!! thank you Sonick. But these EV fanboi's are coming out of the wood works to try and prove that somehow their 68k Model 3's are cheaper to run than a ratrolla LE.

[TypeRNammer]

Originally Posted by Manic!

Just run an extension cord. You don't have any outside plugs?

City of Vancouver doesn't fancy extension cords that go on the sidewalk as that's a tripping hazard. No rear drive way as it's already been demolished.

Just have to suck it up until completion date, which would probably be next year beginning of fall season

[JDMDreams]

I just looked this up, for Bois worrying about the battery and drive motor. Technically Tesla has better warranty than Toyota.

"Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty
The Battery and Drive Unit in your vehicle are covered for a period of:

Model S
Model X 8 years or 240,000 km, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
Model 3 Standard Range
Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive 8 years or 160,000 km, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
Model 3 Long Range
Model 3 Performance
Model Y Long Range
Model Y Performance 8 years or 192,000 km, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period."

Toyota:

Warranty
Every Toyota vehicle is supported by a 36-month/60,000 km limited warranty coverage. But it doesn’t stop there. On top of our basic coverage, we offer:
36 MONTHS
/
60,000 km*
Basic
60 MONTHS
/
100,000 km*
Powertrain
Warranty
96 MONTHS
/
160,000 km*
Hybrid-Related
Component Coverage
120 MONTHS
/
240,000 km*
Hybrid Battery
* Whichever comes first


So if you're getting a base Corolla you're only covered for 100k if your motor craps out but the drive motor/ battery on even a base 3 is covered for 160k

[tegra7]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

Thats exactly my whole point!!! thank you Sonick. But these EV fanboi's are coming out of the wood works to try and prove that somehow their 68k Model 3's are cheaper to run than a ratrolla LE.

They are. $25-30 per week for gas vs $30 per month for home charging.
Also tesla batteries should last 1500 full charge cycles which is estimated between 300,000 - 500,000 miles which is longer than most people keep their cars. I don't understand comparing a Corolla to a tesla in terms of pricing..why not compare a corolla to a cheaper EV like a Kia Soul or Chevy Bolt?

[68style]

$1200 a year maintenance average on a Corolla???

My sister has probably spent $1200 in 19 years on her 2003 Corolla lol

No one is against EV or saying it’s not headed that way but these current cost justifications being made are wild.

[sonick]

Originally Posted by 68style

$1200 a year maintenance average on a Corolla???

My sister has probably spent $1200 in 19 years on her 2003 Corolla lol

No one is against EV or saying it’s not headed that way but these current cost justifications being made are wild.

And probably less than 1% of Corolla engines will crap out at 100k

[Alpine]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

4k rebates now, so your math is wrong. If you went with the hybrid ratrolla, the gas is cheaper so your math is wrong again.

Ah fuck. I forgot the govt increased the rebate. It’s actually up to $9k now.