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My response to that question, spoilered for those who haven't seen it:
Spoiler!
I can't help but believe they are innocent. No DNA evidence in the garage, the damning evidence (read: planted keys) going unnoticed out in plain sight for over a week.. the blood vial and evidence box being tampered with... Brendan's "confession" was so forced it's unbelievable that a jury would think anything otherwise. His own lawyer colluding with the prosecution while being videotaped.
Steve is no angel, he may be capable of murder (apparently he doused his cat in oil and threw it on a fire) but the lack of evidence was overwhelming IMO and I don't think he killed that girl.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MG1
punkwax, I don't care what your friends say about you, you are gold!
Do you guys believe Steve and his nephew is innocent?
Are innocent*
Spoiler!
I think Brenden without a doubt is innocent. He was royally fucked by the police department into confessing and fabricating up a story that never happened. It was such bullshit. The prosecution claimed that the girl was tied up and raped in the bed and that her throat was slit after. There wasn't a single spec of her blood found anywhere in that trailer or the garage. Feel bad for the guy, he's just very slow and all the classic scare tactics that police use to get a confession out of people worked on him with such ease. Also his original appointed attorney was a little piece of shit too. Didn't do a whole lot to defend him and it was kinda proven that he was just working with the prosecution to just solidify their story.
Steven is no saint, that is for damn sure. But you can't help but feel bad for the guy considering what he went through with his first case. His wife left him and took the kids too. His entire life was shattered. He was robbed of 18yrs of his life, he's never getting that time back. I really can't tell if he killed the girl or not. The evidence that pointing against him is a fucking joke honestly. I don't know.. It's such a fucked up case. Steven is still actively working in jail to prove his innocence.
Watched it over the weekend. Have spent the last 2 days reading more about it including forums with tons of back and forth between lawyers and investigators giving their opinions. There are a few things that weren't included in the doc, and i guess the complete videos of the interrogations are available to watch, and apparently they don't look quite as bad as they show in the doc.
You have to always remember that any documentary will be written from one point of view, regardless of its attempts to be unbias. That is almost unavoidable given different parties agreeing to, or not wanting to, be part of it.
At the end of the day, regardless of whether you think they are did it or not, there seems to be overwhelming evidence that should at least give them a new trial in a different jurisdiction. I mean, for fuck sakes 2 of the jurors had clear conflicts of interest, and those were 2 of the 3 who strong armed the 7 who were saying not guilty into changing their minds. The prosecution did not prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they did it. And so much of the evidence provided was either proven, or strongly suspected of being bullshit, including both cops lying under oath, and collusion from Brendans lawyer with the prosecution. The problem is, now Steve blew his whole wad on the first defense, he would have no hope with an appointed attorney.
Theres just so much fuckery in the whole thing. You couldn't write a story that complicated if you wanted to.
just blew through 3 episodes of this, it's so ridiculous it almost seems fictional
Spoiler!
the thing that sticks out to me is Steve Avery's IQ is 70. He's essentially a hill billy and his nephew's IQ has to be even lower from the looks of it. They're completely being manipulated by the prosecutors and I'm surprised the detectives can interrogate them and continually accuse them of crimes without the presence of a lawyer... I mean like you tell a not-so-sharp guy he did something X number of times and eventually he believes it
Brendan looks like he said what the investigators wanted to hear just so he could get out of being interrogated... without any notion of the consequences his words had
the fact that any of this could hold any water in the court of law makes my blood boil
watched 2 episodes so far...it's pretty addicting but
all i remember is that guy apparently does not wear underwear
that and the cops had something like 8 days of uninterrupted access to the Avery property during the Halbach investigation, the very same cops that hate the shit out of this family
i haven't had time to sit down and watch it but someone recommended the "Serial" podcast so i've been listening to that on my drive to work
if i get the chance i'll probably binge both this weekend
__________________ "There's a lot of dead people who had the right of way." "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." "I have a lot of beliefs, and I live by none of them. They're just my beliefs, they make me feel good about who I am. But if they get in the way of a thing I want, like I wanna jack off or something, I just do that."
here's some points that weren't discussed in favor of the prosecution side
Spoiler!
Here are some basic things we know right now:
Parts of Halbach’s body were found burned in Avery’s fire pit.
Evidence of Avery’s involvement was found inside his home.
There is DNA evidence tying the bullet found in the Avery garage to Halbach.
Avery was the last known person to see Halbach alive.
Police found her car, with blood on it and in it, left on the Avery family’s lot.
Avery’s high-school age cousin, Brendan Dassey, confessed that he had assisted his uncle in murder of Halbach.*
Now, to believe Avery is innocent, a person must believe that an implausible number of conspiracies had been unfurled in the case: for starters, the placing of the car, the blood, the body, the keys, and all other evidence. The cover up would have included two DAs and a large group of cops in two police departments. And while it’s not improbable that some of those involved might be morally capable of setting up Avery, Dean Strang (now a sex symbol) and Jerome Buting offered no evidence that anyone had done so, only accusations.
But beyond all that, here are just a few items that the producers of “Making a Murderer” decided to leave out that make the case less riveting and Avery more sympathetic:
— Not only was the bullet found in the garage linked to Halbach’s DNA, but it was forensically tied to Avery’s gun as well. Seems like a pertinent thing for viewers to know. To believe Avery was innocent, you now have to believe that forensics specialists were in on the frame-up and lied about both the DNA and gun, or messed up both tests.
— The criminal complaint claimed that authorities had found restraints — handcuffs and leg irons — at Avery’s residence. In 2006, Avery admitted to buying them so he could use them on his then-girlfriend. This alone doesn’t mean Avery is the killer of course, but it does lend credence to the description offered by Dassey and the police. We heard nothing about this during the show.
— The infamous car key that was found in Avery’s residence had DNA of his sweat on it. So not only are we asked to believe the Manitowoc police department planted the keys in his trailer (and that the neighboring police force was either incompetent or complicit in the deception), but also that somehow the cops had extracted Avery’s perspiration and put it on the key. Another explanation might be that Avery handled the keys when dealing with Halbach, although he denies having ever seen them.
Which bring up additional question: If Avery’s defenders are convinced that DNA from one pubic hair completely exonerates him in the rape case, why does DNA evidence in this case not prove his guilt?
— Avery not only called Auto Trader and specifically requested Halbach to take pictures the day she was killed, but he also gave a false name when he did so. Why? And why would he, and the documentarians, fail to mention it? Avery then called Halbach’s cell phone three times the day she died, twice using *67 to obscure his identity. None of this proves his guilt, but all of these actions undermine the defense’s contention that Halbach was just someone that happened to come by that day for a job. It sounds like he wanted her to come by. None of this is mentioned in the documentary.
— Not only was Avery’s blood — which we’re supposed to believe was planted by the police after being extracted from an evidence room — found in six places on Halbach’s vehicle, but DNA from his sweat was also found on a hood latch. How did it get there? Did the police have a vial of perspiration ready to go the day of the murder?
— You’d also have to be gullible to believe that Avery was merely a flawed, but good-hearted victim of unfortunate circumstance once you learn more about his history. According to an Appleton Post Crescent article from 2006, Avery planned the fantasy torture and killing of a young woman while in prison. According to Ken Kratz at least, Avery also drew up plans for torture chambers while in prison. True? We don’t know. The documentary never mentions (or disproves) any of these accusations.
The young Avery didn’t unintentionally set fire to a cat, as “Making a Murderer” suggests, but poured gasoline on the animal and then threw it into a bonfire, according the Associated Press. And Avery didn’t only threaten a female cousin at gunpoint, an incident the documentary portrays as the unfortunate actions of an immature teen, but is also alleged to have raped a young girl and threatened to kill her family if they spoke out, according another story in Post Crescent (paywalled). If we’re to believe Dassey’s conversations with police, Avery had also molested his cousins. “I even told them about Steven touching me,” Dassey explains to his mother after one of the interviews with police.
Now, we don’t know if all or any of these accusations are true. But we do know that the documentary didn’t offer viewers the full picture of Avery’s purported behavior and ugly proclivities. Yet, the same filmmakers had no problem bringing up Kratz’s sexting scandal and other unpleasant tidbits about the prosecution and police, though they had nothing to do with the case itself.
Why would Avery leave the keys in his room? Why would he leave the vehicle in his lot? Who would be that stupid? He had to be set up. I hear this defense often. Well, maybe Avery is not very bright. Maybe Avery didn’t have time to rid himself of the evidence. Who cares? Whether he was smart enough to mastermind a murder or whether he once faced an injustice of the system, doesn’t change the facts of this case. Maybe if I was on the jury I would see things differently. My judgement is made solely on the evidence available to me as a viewer. Maybe we’ll hear new evidence moving forward that changes all of this, but “Making a Murderer,” much like “Serial” before it, is a work of advocacy journalism.
here's some points that weren't discussed in favor of the prosecution side
Spoiler!
Here are some basic things we know right now:
Parts of Halbach’s body were found burned in Avery’s fire pit.
Evidence of Avery’s involvement was found inside his home.
There is DNA evidence tying the bullet found in the Avery garage to Halbach.
Avery was the last known person to see Halbach alive.
Police found her car, with blood on it and in it, left on the Avery family’s lot.
Avery’s high-school age cousin, Brendan Dassey, confessed that he had assisted his uncle in murder of Halbach.*
Now, to believe Avery is innocent, a person must believe that an implausible number of conspiracies had been unfurled in the case: for starters, the placing of the car, the blood, the body, the keys, and all other evidence. The cover up would have included two DAs and a large group of cops in two police departments. And while it’s not improbable that some of those involved might be morally capable of setting up Avery, Dean Strang (now a sex symbol) and Jerome Buting offered no evidence that anyone had done so, only accusations.
But beyond all that, here are just a few items that the producers of “Making a Murderer” decided to leave out that make the case less riveting and Avery more sympathetic:
— Not only was the bullet found in the garage linked to Halbach’s DNA, but it was forensically tied to Avery’s gun as well. Seems like a pertinent thing for viewers to know. To believe Avery was innocent, you now have to believe that forensics specialists were in on the frame-up and lied about both the DNA and gun, or messed up both tests.
— The criminal complaint claimed that authorities had found restraints — handcuffs and leg irons — at Avery’s residence. In 2006, Avery admitted to buying them so he could use them on his then-girlfriend. This alone doesn’t mean Avery is the killer of course, but it does lend credence to the description offered by Dassey and the police. We heard nothing about this during the show.
— The infamous car key that was found in Avery’s residence had DNA of his sweat on it. So not only are we asked to believe the Manitowoc police department planted the keys in his trailer (and that the neighboring police force was either incompetent or complicit in the deception), but also that somehow the cops had extracted Avery’s perspiration and put it on the key. Another explanation might be that Avery handled the keys when dealing with Halbach, although he denies having ever seen them.
Which bring up additional question: If Avery’s defenders are convinced that DNA from one pubic hair completely exonerates him in the rape case, why does DNA evidence in this case not prove his guilt?
— Avery not only called Auto Trader and specifically requested Halbach to take pictures the day she was killed, but he also gave a false name when he did so. Why? And why would he, and the documentarians, fail to mention it? Avery then called Halbach’s cell phone three times the day she died, twice using *67 to obscure his identity. None of this proves his guilt, but all of these actions undermine the defense’s contention that Halbach was just someone that happened to come by that day for a job. It sounds like he wanted her to come by. None of this is mentioned in the documentary.
— Not only was Avery’s blood — which we’re supposed to believe was planted by the police after being extracted from an evidence room — found in six places on Halbach’s vehicle, but DNA from his sweat was also found on a hood latch. How did it get there? Did the police have a vial of perspiration ready to go the day of the murder?
— You’d also have to be gullible to believe that Avery was merely a flawed, but good-hearted victim of unfortunate circumstance once you learn more about his history. According to an Appleton Post Crescent article from 2006, Avery planned the fantasy torture and killing of a young woman while in prison. According to Ken Kratz at least, Avery also drew up plans for torture chambers while in prison. True? We don’t know. The documentary never mentions (or disproves) any of these accusations.
The young Avery didn’t unintentionally set fire to a cat, as “Making a Murderer” suggests, but poured gasoline on the animal and then threw it into a bonfire, according the Associated Press. And Avery didn’t only threaten a female cousin at gunpoint, an incident the documentary portrays as the unfortunate actions of an immature teen, but is also alleged to have raped a young girl and threatened to kill her family if they spoke out, according another story in Post Crescent (paywalled). If we’re to believe Dassey’s conversations with police, Avery had also molested his cousins. “I even told them about Steven touching me,” Dassey explains to his mother after one of the interviews with police.
Now, we don’t know if all or any of these accusations are true. But we do know that the documentary didn’t offer viewers the full picture of Avery’s purported behavior and ugly proclivities. Yet, the same filmmakers had no problem bringing up Kratz’s sexting scandal and other unpleasant tidbits about the prosecution and police, though they had nothing to do with the case itself.
Why would Avery leave the keys in his room? Why would he leave the vehicle in his lot? Who would be that stupid? He had to be set up. I hear this defense often. Well, maybe Avery is not very bright. Maybe Avery didn’t have time to rid himself of the evidence. Who cares? Whether he was smart enough to mastermind a murder or whether he once faced an injustice of the system, doesn’t change the facts of this case. Maybe if I was on the jury I would see things differently. My judgement is made solely on the evidence available to me as a viewer. Maybe we’ll hear new evidence moving forward that changes all of this, but “Making a Murderer,” much like “Serial” before it, is a work of advocacy journalism.
Dean Strang addresses some of the things brought up in your post.
1: the bullet was found by an officer who was not supposed to be part of the investigation.... FIVE MONTHS after the garage was initially searched top to bottom, with everything in it being searched and presto, theres one magic bullet laying around.
also, as the story goes, steven killed her in his garage, meaning he shot her at very close range, so there would have been blood everywhere. steven was some how so smart and thorough that he spit polished the garage so well they couldn't even find a drop of blood anywhere (and keep in mind this was a cluttered junk shed, not a clean garage), but he was too stupid to pick up the bullet he killed her with?
edit: also from what i understand, the bullet itself wasn't linked to averys gun. only the 11 empty shells were.
2: the key, which again, was found by that same officer who was not supposed to be part of the investigation, several days after the bedroom had been searched several times, including the bed stand being moved, and the whole thing being photographed and videotaped, and suddenly its right there in the open? have you ever lost your keys? are they ever in the place you looked 4 times before?
secondly, the man we all assume is dumb as shit, was able to spit polish the bedroom and garage so thoroughly there was no DNA or blood in either, but somehow forgot to do something with the key instead of leaving it out in the open.
thirdly, im fairly certain i read somewhere it was proven to be a spare key, not her main key. and who only has a car key on their keychain, not a house key or any other key?
fourth, how can a key that someone is supposed to use everyday to drive their car not contain ANY DNA aside from the dna of the guy who allegedly killed her.
and to bring them both together, the officer who found both of those pieces of evidence, was not supposed to be involved in the investigation, lied under oath and was caught, very likely snuck onto the property (as shown by the logs), was being named in the law suit by steven avery, was in the chain of custody of his DNA, and was involved in his other wrongful conviction.
ah hell, ill keep going
so the blood found in her car was supposed to be from the cut on his hand right? so if his cut finger left blood in the car, he couldn't have been wearing gloves, right? k then why are there no finger prints? so he was smart enough to wear gloves to not leave finger prints on anything, anywhere. but he was too stupid to wipe up blood?
also, 3 of 6 spots of blood were tested, not all 6. and the bigger smear in the trunk apparently came from hair.
the call to auto trader with a 'fake name', he used his sisters name. the name of the person selling the van.
^^^^
I totally agree with you, i just wanted to point out the other side since a documentary can edit anything towards their own agenda.
I don't believe steven or brendan killed her, they just don't have the iq capacity to clean up a crime scene. prosecution claims she was shot 11 times, no blood splatter on any of the junk pile in the garage, no blood found in the crack on the floor, how's that possible?
also if they raped her and slashed her throat, I find it almost impossible to not find any blood, i think the floor was carpeted too.
why the f didn't the cops investigate the ex bf or roommate? they look guilty as fuck
so many things that were f'd up in this investigation, the system is messed, the same judge for the appeals court, ha laughable
Does it get better after the first 2 episodes? I feel like they could have been condensed into one 40 min episode... Maybe my expectations were too high
I agree if you like this you'll love Serial. That was so good.
I'll give ep 3 a go tonight, but so far I'm not that intrigued.
I know this was filmed over a 10yr period, video footage, audio they state is all real, however I keep noticing when the camera goes to film the reporters, they all look like shitty actors. Did they go back film these reporters with their actors? I couldn't find anything on the web regarding this
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp
Does it get better after the first 2 episodes? I feel like they could have been condensed into one 40 min episode... Maybe my expectations were too high
I agree if you like this you'll love Serial. That was so good.
I'll give ep 3 a go tonight, but so far I'm not that intrigued.
watching it condensed on cnn's coverage may be the way to go for many, it does get a bit more interesting albeit slowly.
police bending the rules, planting evidence, or colluding with one another (even with defense lawyers) isn't exactly uncommon, even here... but this case wow! and to have it uncovered like this, definitely worth the watch
if you're not into these sorts of investigative shows, or reading case files, then yeah stick to the coverage on tv :0
I know this was filmed over a 10yr period, video footage, audio they state is all real, however I keep noticing when the camera goes to film the reporters, they all look like shitty actors. Did they go back film these reporters with their actors? I couldn't find anything on the web regarding this
Reporters have got to be ready to go on camera any time. They were the real reporters on site. So they had their make up and everything done at all times during.
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Quote:
[03-07, 03:26] Yodamaster - The feeling when you quickly insert without hitting the sides
the halbach murder was all a set up to throw avery back into jail. avery was thrown into jail for 18 years for a crime he did not commit which means the police department failed big time, not only costing an innocent man 18 years of his life, but also letting the real rapist walk free. they cant just let avery walk free so they fabricated this whole thing up and screw him over once again to save themselves face.
/tinfoilhatoff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajinHurricane
I had some girl come into the busser station the other day trying to make out with every staff member and then pull down her pants and asked for someone to stick a dick in her (at least she shaved).
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Originally Posted by 1exotic
Vtec doesn't kick in on Reverse.
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Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma
its like.. oh yeah oh yeah.. ohhhh yeah... OOoooOohh... why's it suddenly feel a bit better... ohhhh yeahh... ohhh...oh..fuck... it probably ripped.
wait, so what happened to Kratz?
- as a district attorney he was sexting his client
- others come up accusing him of sexual harassment
- he essentially blackmails the DOJ with his clout in the Avery case
and then he just resigns and leaves?...
also, with the arguments of whether Avery is innocent or not, whether the documentary was too one-sided, none of that matters because the the point of the whole documentary was to highlight the failings of the criminal justice system. Regardless of Avery's innocence, he shouldn't be in jail because there are so many conflicts of interest and inconsistencies with the prosecutor's evidence and testimonies. There is no way a case with that many holes in it proves a man is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
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