Two year controlled bulking - WTF am I doing wrong? (NOT a trollpost)
 

Hi guys,

I made this post two years ago and thought, since I got really lean, I was in an excellent position to slowly build muscle over the next two years and actually seeing results assuming I didn't obscure any visible gains by gaining too much fat.

Fast forward two years and I've gone through two cycles where I went from 140lbs-->153lbs ----> 140lbs ---> 153lbs ----> 140 lbs (currently)

-I worked out consistently (3x/week mainly upper body incorporating compound movements like bench, dead, pullups, and isolation)
-I gain fat pretty easily and both times I got to 153 lbs, it was pretty much all fat. When I got back down to 140 I looked lean and the same as when I started

I thought perhaps it's genetics (asian, 5'7) so I also decided to get my testosterone checked and the results show:
18.0 nmol/L which was in the reference range they gave me of 8.4-28.8 nmol/L.
It doesn't say whether this was total or free test but I believe it's total.

Can someone confirm my beliefs that this test essentially says low testosterone is NOT the problem since it's in the middle of that range?

If so, WTF am I doing wrong?

I've honestly been working out for 5 years total--the 140lbs starting point was the first time I got that lean and have tried pure strength as well as moderate strength/hypertrophy routines.
I'm honestly not even a noob knowledge-wise: I've followed bodybuilders on youtube over the years, listened and read a lot of Lyle McDonald and Eric Helms' podcasts/articles so I know the general rules for building muscle losing fat (i.e. 2-300 cal surplus when bulking with moderate-to-high protein and focus on PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD in the gym; when dieting, at least 1g/lb protein, keep intensity/strength up, 500-700 cal deficit, etc.)

I haven't done high volume (4-5x week routines as I've always been pretty sore out of the gym on 3x/week and many gurus seem to say it's for steroid users since recovery is less of an issue). Perhaps I need to start doing 4-5x/week given nothing else worked?

i'm no expert but when i was making my biggest gains i was eating clean but eating a ridiculous amount of calories. You likely aren't eating clean if your gains are pretty much all fat. I also don't think 200 to 300 cal surplus is enough to make decent gains. I don't know your age but i started putting on noticeable muscle when i was about 22 despite lifting for years prior to that. Was very frustrating. I'm tall and skinny and my comments are completely anecdotal.

3 times a week is barely enough to make gains. Do 5x5 for a year and see what happens or 5-3-1. If your not gaining size you aren't eating enough or lifting heavy enough.

Berz out.

I was in the same boat as you but my test WAS low (like half of yours) and getting that fixed led to results. Turns out I was doing everything mostly right for several years, though I did spend some time before that before figuring shit out. I think I have things nailed down pretty well now, to the point where I can go through bulk and cutting phases and am consistently improving my physique. Whereas before I could go from fat to skinnyfat and back and forth, maybe making a bit of gains overall (but never in the chest lol)

I think the issue is you are not tracking your macros. You're talking about the training you do, your weight gains and losses, and you went as far as getting a blood test. However you didn't mention anywhere what your caloric intake and macros looked like.

My recommendation: Use this TDEE calculator and eat at a +500 calorie surplus. Try to get roughly 0.8-1g of protein per lb of bodyweight each day, fill out the rest with carbs and fat.

WEIGH EVERYTHING YOU EAT AND TRACK YOUR MACROS AND CALORIES. Do this for a few months at least, to get an idea of what it takes to reach your goals. Eventually it can become more automatic, but even then you really have to watch what you eat.

I GUARANTEE that you aren't eating as much as you think you are when trying to bulk. Especially considering how easy it seems to be for you to cut.

For training I'd recommend a 4 day or 5 day program focused on hypertrophy. I had a lot of success with this one. I have combined it with 5/3/1 for strength, and combined it with GVT for pure hypertrophy.

One last thing to consider, if you aren't progressing in some way every single week for your first few years of lifting, either increasing the weight or increasing the reps, you are doing something wrong. You aren't eating enough and/or getting enough sleep. There's practically no way you should be bench pressing exactly the same weight/sets/reps that you did a week or two ago. Something (weight/reps) has to progress constantly, or you are spinning your wheels. For big compound lifts, weight should go up. For smaller muscles like delt raises, focus more on increasing reps. Because it's easy for other muscles to take over on those lifts, and your progress will be 'fake'

Thanks for the responses

SkinnyPupp, I've actually seen your post about low T which was what prompted me to get blood work done. Glad to see you're able to continue making progress.

Apologies as I may not have made it too clear in my OP (bear with me, I'm honestly frustrated with this):

I am 30 (started working out casually when I was 22 and became serious at around 24/25).

To be clear, I gain weight VERY easily. I appear to lose fat easily but that's because I'm tracking macros. I am sedentary so I diet on 1400 calories/day with macros at 40/30/30 protein/carb/fat. I use myfitnesspal to track and manage to lose ~1lb/week. If I didn't track I would go over 2,000 VERY easily and gain fat which was why I had never seen my abs until two years ago!

I believe I am eating enough? If I'm not eating enough, surely I wouldn't go from 140-->153lbs twice in two years? The weight gain is effortless believe me lol....

If there are no red flags in terms of nutrition (please put me in my place if it's clear I'm delusional), then it sounds like it's the training. If every time I go from 140 --> 153lbs, I only gain fat, then that means it's the training that's the problem right?

I'll look into that T-Nation hypertrophy routine, 5x5, and 5/3/1 and pick a routine. I've never tried more than 3x/week simply because I was always tired/sore after the workouts and couldn't see myself training two days in a row and enjoying it. I've always wanted to keep my gym sessions to 1 hour max and I guess for some people that works. For example, kinobody's (Youtuber) routines all focus on strength (progressive overload) and low-moderate volume which is in line with what I've been doing for years.

I guess this just shows my body doesn't respond to low volume and I should bring it up a notch. I think it might be time to go 4-5 days for this 3rd cycle.

Thanks and I am always open to more comments and advice.

5x5 is really for pure beginners (which you may need to accept that you are, as this should be based on progress not time spent training), and 5/3/1 itself is a pure strength routine that is to be added to an existing program (either strength or hypertrophy).

The reason you can work 2 days in a row is because you're working different body parts on consecutive days. IE chest one day, back the next. Rest day, then shoulders then legs, then you get 2 rest days. If you aren't hammering your muscles to death, and eating enough, recovery will be fine

I punched in your numbers to the calculator (140 lbs, 5'7" and I estimated 12% BF since you say you can see abs) and your maintenance is 2444 calories. Add 500 cals on top of that to gain weight - so you should be eating roughly 3000 calories per day, or twice as much as you are eating now. You exercise 3-4 times a week, you are not sedentary!

The fact that you listed your macros in terms of ratios rather than how many grams of each you're consuming is somewhat of a red flag for me. You might want to aim for a ratio, but you should know how many grams of each you're consuming. I really watch my macros when cutting, so I could tell you exactly how much protein carbs and fat I ate yesterday. But as far as ratio, I don't know or care.

Just make sure the food is "clean" as possible, meaning try to get 150-200g of protein per day and fill out the rest with healthy fat and carbs.

Going even higher protein will allow you to keep it even cleaner - 'natural' meat is the best, most nutrient dense food you can eat. By that I mean meat that is cut off an animal, not in a can or fast food.

If you are only gaining fat, there really is something wrong with your training and/or diet. You aren't working right and/or not eating right. Honestly if you work hard enough you can eat pretty junky food to get the calories high enough. You'll gain fat yes, but you will gain a lot of muscle as well. Do a mini cut to get rid of the excess fat, and your physique will progress overall. Is this the best way to go about it? No, but keep in mind that you have to live your life as well - unless you're doing this for some other benefit, either to make money or win contests, you need to figure out what type of progress is right for you.

At even 150 lbs I can't see that being fat enough to really give a shit about... If I were in your position I'd just say fuck it and keep eating and eating until I got to at least 180 lbs and assess from there. AS LONG AS THE TRAINING IS GOOD AND YOU ARE PROGRESSING EACH TIME YOU GO TO THE GYM.

But I was never the "small guy trying to get big" I was the "fat guy trying to get ripped" so maybe someone else would have more specific experience to share. For me, 150 lbs is so light (I assume you're a male, I didn't even think to ask) I can't imagine worrying about it.

I will just share my journey over the last 3.5 years of going back to the gym.

- Started at 160lbs (5'11 and Chinese)
- I was lean,skinny, whatever you want to call it but I had a bit of a belly despite that
- My eating was shit, eat when I want often even before I slept, fast foods, fattiest meats, no veggies
- First 2 years at the gym I was going consistently at about 3-4 times a week, lifting heavy but wasn't taking it too too seriously. More just going through the motion but I still went and I still worked when I was there, none of this on my phone the whole time BS but I knew mentally I wasn't trying hard enough
- Eating was still the same, still ate like shit and didn't eat anymore either
- Would have a protein shake afterworkout
- 2 years later I'm 170lbs, belly didn't get any bigger it was all muscle and noticeably so
- Going into year 3 (2017) i wanted to take it up a notch and really start taking it more seriously
- Aside from working out harder the one main change I did was drink 1 protein shake every morning. I don't typically eat breakfast until 3 hours after I wake up so the shake first thing seemed like a logical thing to do. That plus me working out harder I went from 170lbs > 180lbs within 1.5months and have maintained that weight for a year now and it was all muscle gain not fat as well

I don't even know if any of this helps but it's the story for me the past 3.5 years. I'm actually 186lbs now, i somehow gained 6lbs this year after maintaining 180lbs for a solid 12months

I try to go 7 days a week for 2hrs with 45mins of cardio (35 hard, 5min warm up and cool down) everyday. I'm on a 4 day routine and I write everything down in my little diary. Up the weights every few weeks once I get comfortable. Finally broke 200lbs and sitting at 205 now. My lean lean is about 180lbs and I was at 190-195 for the longest time.

I definitely don't track what I eat, but I try not to eat too poorly... I'd say i'm middle of the road between eating like a fat american and eating like a bodybuilder would.

I really have no idea what i'm doing. I just focus on lifting heavier every few weeks and increasing my cardio periodically haha.

gave you a thanks for following up on a 2 year old post

SkinnyPupp post pics! (no homo)

Sure I'll post a really small one.. Pics are 2 years apart. Before was after cutting down from like 220 lbs to like 180 IIRC

"After" is last winter, after a 6 weekish mini cut but after a HUGE carb day, with pasta and pancakes so I was carrying quite the foodbaby LUL 195ish lbs

https://i.imgur.com/hFZmB4s.jpg

Been bulking since then, I am up to 210 lbs. Gained some fat but I plan on doing another mini cut in about 2-3 weeks. Thinking about going beyond TRT drug-wise (I always think about that) but don't really see the point just yet, or if ever. I kind of like the way things are going already.

Damn that's an impressive pic!
The more I think about this and from reading your responses, the more I'm realizing it is my training that is lacking.

This is so sad, I agree I might have to treat myself as one....

I have to respectfully both agree and disagree. The numbers from that calculator are very similar to the numbers I used when I dieted/bulked (except I had used a 'sedentary' setting because I have an office job). That meant ~2000 maintenance and 1400-1500 calories when dieting. This takes into account working out 3x a week. The thing is, this worked for me. I have zero problems dieting and losing ~1 lb / week (because of discipline, not because of genetics :)). I have progress pictures and everything and essentially have it down to a science. I had dieted on 1800-2000 calories in my initial stages and quickly found I was not losing weight. That was how I ended up with the magic 1400-1500 number.

I realize your 3000 calorie number is also just an estimate and one must adjust for how one's body responds. I guess perhaps I'm just wary of eating too much because I put on fat very easily. When I bulked from 140lbs to 153lbs both times, I was eating anywhere from 2200 to 2600 calories. Over 8 months my weight would creep up to to 153lbs and it would be all fat.
The solution can't be that I'm not eating enough. Starting to realize I can't "get away" with eating too much because my training is extremely lacking.

Agreed. I used ratios to keep things simple but yes when I tracked the breakdowns (myfitnesspal) and could tell you exactly what I ate.

100% agree and I'm realizing it's likely my training.

Haha, I am pretty much like you. I hovered at 160-165lbs ~23-25% body fat since university. When I look at past pictures (both topless as well as when out with friends), compared to my current ~12% body fat self, it's a HUGE difference and I honestly never want to go back there LOL. My face was puffy and round, moderate stomach, big thighs.

I'm male (obviously) but my fat distribution is very much like that of a female's (i.e. lower body is where fat tends to get stored). This really sucks as when I'm at 17%+ bf the proportions start looking off and my pants immediately feel tighter around the thigh area.

I am happy to bulk to 180lbs but as you said, only if the training is right and I'm putting on at least 50% fat/muscle. Currently, it's 100% fat so continuing to 180 would be a disaster unless I fix the problem, which thanks to you guys, it sounds like I just need to grow some balls and do higher volume.

My ideal physique is 160 lbs at 10% body fat. For a 5'7 guy, that's impressive and huge for my goals. This is essentially what it would look like for me:
https://www.instagram.com/p/7KOYeEGR...by=daniel.lvgt
I've seen this dude in person a couple years back when he was a personal trainer at the gym I went to and in person, it was a very impressive physique and nobody (in person) would say he looked small.

That's my goal and I'm motivated as ****.

Skinny, your 195 lbs physique with visible abs is freakin impressive. On paper, people might say "anything under 200lbs is not huge" but in person, DAMN that's huge. EDIT: forgot to clarify that I recall you mentioned you are 5'9 so I'm basing my "HUGE" comment on your weight in comparison to your height.

add 1L of homo milk a day problem solved

You don't need to bulk. I've never bulked once in my life, if you know me personally, you would know I stay thick and lean all year.

Bulking is silly, unless you're planning to compete, most guys end up just getting fat when they "bulk".

Your test is somewhat low, but before deciding to play with it using TRT, I'd suggest you try out some Clomid first. I had low test a few years ago, and still fight it from time to time, Clomid is a life saver for that. My test jumped up to 40 nmol/L on Clomid alone. My endocrinologist suggested this to me, and she couldn't believe how much my test jumped (coming from 6 nmol/L), she even thought I was taking testosterone.

I'm actually surprised more guys don't go this route before going the full TRT route, because Clomid definitely worked, at least for me.

As for your training, 3 times a week is a waste of time, that volume is for maintaining, if that. You need to be in the gym 5-6 days a week for at least half a year or more to get to some kind of base you're looking for.

People think body composition changes are a quick process because they see Youtube/Instagram models on shit tons of gear doing one shit to fit videos, LOL.

You've probably heard this before, but you will need to commit more time to working your lower body. Get used to squatting, and deadlifting. I'm not going to go all "Olympic lifting bro" on you, but you need to incorporate a full leg routine each week, throwing in a day with heavy deadlifting (perhaps on your back or chest day, etc). These are your lifts that will bulk you up, you'd be surprised how much muscle your body will begin to develop throughout if you stay committed to this.

Like Skinnypup said as well, you should be going for hypertrophy, staying in the 12-15 rep range. You need to clarify your weak points better to really assess what you're doing wrong here.

Much appreciate it. I wanted to start lean because I wanted to do a controlled bulk so it sounds like what you're saying is exactly what I've been trying to do. The message seems clear that 3 days isn't enough. I'll be starting the routine SkinnyPupp linked earlier as it seems to be challenging and contain enough volume to completely shock my body.

I would consider Clomid if my doctor recommends it. Given my T levels are still in the acceptable range, I'm wary of messing around with hormones :S

With all due respect, I'm assuming this is a troll post. I have no problem gaining weight as I've indicated. I don't see how an extra L of milk will help me outside of getting me fatter faster (not to mention explosive diarrhea). This advice might be suited for an ectomorph but that is clearly not me.

He’s not entirely trolling.

Provided you have a consistent resistance training program, have the insulin sensitivity to process the sugar and expending enough calories (which you are not doing with 3x/week like other have mentioned), milk is an excellent source of macronutrients (protein, fats, carbs). Just read the nutrition label and I promise you won’t spend another dime on supplements.

Got milk?

If you think the biggest guy on this sub forum is trolling...you need to do more research.

Cottage cheese, olive oil, homo milk, greek yogurt, etc. And lift heavy often?

Lactose intolerance is an issue for some people, including me. Otherwise, I would be drinking milk all day long.

You know who is 5' 7" and at 170 lbs competition weight? Lü Xiaojun

Edit: In my opinion, you will need to get fat to put on the muscle. It's just how the body works. So at one point you'll need to put in those extra calories. IMO the best time is July, August, bulk until Feb, March, and start a cut. Assuming you'll want to be shirtless in the summer :D

I've been lifting on and off for about 20 years, and no where near the physique of the dudes here. My advice should be taken as a grain of salt.

I was also on a 1500 calorie cut last year, it was horrible. Athletic performance across the board was down, couldn't lift as heavy, run as fast, or for as long, and I was super grumpy all the time, straight hating for no reason, lol. Started eating about 2500-2800 calories again this Jan, huge difference. Back on track on lifting heavier, and a personal best/record for 10km run. For a month, every time I ate till I was full, I could feel the dopamine rushing into my brain. My stats are 5' 7", about 175 lbs, 16% bf, ball park. I try to keep my macros at 40% protein, 40% carbs, 20% fats (unsaturated if I can help it). I also try to stay away from high glycemic index foods, pretty much no refined sugars, the only sources I have are from my protein bars, and Gatorade.

^agreed about having to put on fat. I guess at the crux of it, it sounds like my training was subpar which is why I only got fat and didn't gain muscle. Thanks and I appreciate you sharing your experience!

I have mad respect for his accomplishments. I just felt his post was akin to telling someone whos problem is getting fat, to eat more. Maybe I'm wrong but throwing a one liner in the wrong context and saying "problem solved" is arrogant and frankly insulting to my situation.

I'm actually glad you're just taking in the info being given to you, and not just taking it for absolute truth. It shows you're willing to try out and learn rather than just follow along.

Calorie intake is a general guide, but I think a lot of smaller people don't realize how much eating it takes to put on lean mass. People are so afraid to get a bit fat, that they end up barely able to gain muscle either.

I know for me it takes a much higher deficit to lose weight than it does a surplus to gain. That's another topic though, maybe once you start cutting I can share those experiences LUL

I agree with mike that a pure bulk is not really necessary for most people, and a 'lean bulk' over a longer period of time is better. This is especially the case if you're sensitive to fat gain.

Get your training sorted out and see how it goes. The routine I shared is good because it can be altered to suit your needs. I actually changed it around to give myself 2 chest days for a while, as my chest was severely lacking (as you can see in the pic). Since my chest caught up, I now do 2 back days.

I always do 2 leg days (one overall leg day and one deadlift day). However I injured my back in December and have been unable to deadlift until very recently :(

Definitely don't neglect legs

Just remember I can't stress this enough, that you need to be progressing constantly. No matter what the scale says, no matter how much food you're eating. If your weights or reps aren't increasing, you aren't actually gaining anything. You're maintaining (which is fine sometimes if that's your goal). If you're not progressing, most likely you're not eating enough. And remember, some lifts you don't want to progress too much in weight, or other parts take over. This is usually the smaller muscle groups that you hit with isolation work.

Also Halo's not trolling, just oversimplifying a lot ;) He used to be super pinner and is now fucking ENORMOUS and strong. His advice is not to be ignored. I know you resisted that part of my advice, but Halo agrees: Get those calories in!

sorry I was a bit blunt with that post.

like skinny stated in that last part of his last post about always progressing ect. I have been working out for years now and now I can finally kind of maintain and do not need to follow such strict rules ect and write down everything a track everything. But still when my bench or squat or dead is not going up, I am slacking in the gym with the weights I will revaluate what I am doing wrong

I think allot of new guys in this day and age of working out, go for the instagram , snap story work out advice or what that gym from gym shark is wearing. Don't get me wrong allot of those guys have great body's no homo. But take a guy like MATT OGUS that everyone is hard for, or whatever and he is fowling the power lifting slash body building program. Always doing compound lifts. Nothing has changed. Yes there are some new funky exercises out there that I see people do in the gym but I still stick with simple ass workouts cause it has worked for me. I am 6'7 and I can squat dead and bench. People make these excuses that they need to start doing exercise ball dumbbell press cause flat bench makes them sore in the back the next day. Anyway I am talking blabber now.

Follow the simple workout plan, do legs more then once a week every 5 days. Eat lots of good clean food and always go back to the drawing board. If all else fails cross fit might in the future for you

Thanks to everyone for their advice. SkinnyPupp, it does appear that training is one of the areas I'm lacking in so I'll get my training sorted first as you said and go from there. I'm just coming off the tail end of the diet and will start with that routine you shared and adjust from there.

Hal0g0dv2, all is good man and as mentioned I have mad respect for your accomplishments. It's been a frustrating two years so I apologize for calling you out like that. I honestly wish I could do a 100 lb bulk like you had done. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum sadly and gaining weight isn't my issue, it's gaining good weight.

In terms of workout volume, this was what I used to do for a chest/tri day:

Bench press 3x5
cable crossovers 3x10
tricep pushdown 3x10
shoulder press 3x8
lateral raises 3x12

since I worked out 3x/week, if I did this on Monday, I'd do it again on Friday (I alternated workouts A/B where A is above, and B is a back/biceps day).

Looking back the volume doesn't seem high enough (but I swear people like Lyle McDonald/Eric Helms/Layne Norton don't usually recommend high volume routine with a million 5x8 sets etc. so this looked very much in line with a lot of routines I've seen out there!)

My diet ends in 2 weeks and I am gonna start on that routine SkinnyPupp shared. I'll likely end up eating 2800-3000 calories with macros along these lines 140p/400c/80f and see what happens. I'll monitor it closely the first couple weeks to ensure the weight gain doesn't happen too quickly (i.e. fat). 2800-3000 might work fine since I'll be burning more calories doing 4 days with high volume.

Thanks again folks! Hopefully, I'll have good news to report!

you're not training hard enough, plain and simple

Imo. You shouldn't discard high volume just cause a few big lifters say its unnecessary. There are just as many well-known lifters saying you need the extra volume. Remember everyone is different

Personally, I found having a 3 day week routine is only enough for maintenance. At most a very slow min gain that is almost negligible. Also during that time I increased my volume for each day. I don't think your doing enough in your example

One thing id highly recommend for your routine is to incorporate more periodization training.

Canditos 6 week program is amazing. I made solid gains with it
Candito Training HQ

I'm currently doing a modified version of Wendlers 5/3/1 (I found the volume a bit lacking, so I added a couple additional assist workouts)
Jim Wendler 5-3-1 Workout Spreadsheet & Workout Info - Violent Zen?

That's a great transformation, did the TRT put you into normal levels or Vitor Belfort levels?