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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Zedbra: Show me proof of Trump racism!
inv4zn: Shows proof of Trump racism, multiple sources juuust in case Zedbra calls MSM fake news, etc.
Zedbra: Okay, this is good, but BLM stole money! Revscene is mean!
Revscene: You didn't address anything...
Zedbra: Meanies! Calling people names! Snowflakes!
Truly, I ask you though - without any prejudice - is it derogatory to call someone with a long, known and well documented history of racism a racist? Because that's the issue you were originally making before you shot off with projections and gaslighting and diversions and all that.
Why are you soo upset that people are calling Trump racist, when he clearly has a history of being a racist? Is it because 'the left' are attacking your supreme leader? Like what is it?
Why are you soo upset that people are calling Trump racist, when he clearly has a history of being a racist? Is it because 'the left' are attacking your supreme leader? Like what is it?
K, not defending anyone and I sure's hell don't like Trump but for the sake of logic here, I will make one point. I don't know if this is Zedbra's point, he can speak for himself. I don't think the point was whether Trump was a racist, the point was whether all his supporters were racists.
Yes, Trump is a racist. But those who voted for Trump does not necessarily mean that they are racist (they could be but not logically necessary). Just stop and think about that for a moment logically before you start failing or gaslighting. So proving Trump is a racist does not prove that all his supporters are. Might be safe to say that a large majority are but you cannot logically say that they all are.
I know it is hard to believe but there are some non-racists, reasonable people who actually like Trump's fiscal policies and voted for him despite his assinine character.
K, not defending anyone and I sure's hell don't like Trump but for the sake of logic here, I will make one point. I don't know if this is Zedbra's point, he can speak for himself. I don't think the point was whether Trump was a racist, the point was whether all his supporters were racists.
Yes, Trump is a racist. But those who voted for Trump does not necessarily mean that they are racist (they could be but not logically necessary). Just stop and think about that for a moment logically before you start failing or gaslighting. So proving Trump is a racist does not prove that all his supporters are. Might be safe to say that a large majority are but you cannot logically say that they all are.
I know it is hard to believe but there are some non-racists, reasonable people who actually like Trump's fiscal policies and voted for him despite his assinine character.
Ok, a level-headed response - thank you.
And just like you, I can't speak on behalf of everyone, but dare I say that the general consensus is that of course not all Trump supporters are racist. Yes, some people do support him/his policies for reasons other than racism, and that's perfectly fine.
But the issue at hand is that it's undeniable that there are several groups who are outspoken Trump supporters that are unsavoury at best. White supremacists; armed militias rounding up illegal immigrants; ICE; law enforcement agencies and unions with another long list of documented systemic racism; white terrorists shooting black churches, BLM protests, just black people, etc.
And the fact that Trump himself, as well as some Trump supporters are unwilling to label them for what they are is the issue.
I guess the tl;dr is: Not all Trump supporters are racist. But all racists support Trump.
Edit: To add, I know Zedbra donates a lot of clothes to charities and people in need - as well as doing many other things that are stellar in character. Why he sees political opinions as some sort of attack on his person is beyond me, a lot of the discussions we have here are towards 'groups' or a sort of hyperbole. Very rarely is it directed at one individual. Now, given the constant narrative from 'the right' that 'the left' are sensitive, maybe that too is another projection - but I digress. I know I've said this before and I'll say it again - if Zedbra is trapped in a house on fire, I won't hesitate to help him; and hopefully he feels the same way about me.
The low number of cases reported in the Sputnik V trial means that there is less certainty that the vaccine’s true efficacy is above 90%, compared with the Pfizer and BioNTech analysis, said Stephen Evans, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, in a statement to the UK Science Media Centre (SMC). “Further follow-up is needed because the results are compatible with a much lower efficacy — 60% — based on these data.”
It is difficult to interpret the clinical-trial results without more information, says Shane Crotty, a vaccine immunologist at the La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California. “I would not conclude anything from 20 events.”
It's really okay to support Trump for his fiscal policies. That is probably his only redeeming quality as a leader.
But those that do support Trump JUST for his fiscal policies while ignoring every other morally questionable antic of his have no grounds to stand when discussing non-fiscal related issue.
Also find it incredibly ironically that some trump supporter can criticize countries like China in the same sentence. China is the definition of putting fiscal policy in front of morality and look where they are now. How can trump supporters criticize China for putting money before their people when Trump was leading the country in the same direction?
Everything will be fine when economic pick up and everybody has money right? No, just look at what happened in China. Fiscal policy should not come before basic morality issue that we as a society have fought so hard to defend. This is a dangerous path to go on. So very glad American has decided to not take this path
Also find it incredibly ironically that some trump supporter can criticize countries like China in the same sentence. China is the definition of putting fiscal policy in front of morality and look where they are now. How can trump supporters criticize China for putting money before their people when Trump was leading the country in the same direction?
The major difference worth pointing out here is -- the whole US political and legal system is practically defined on checks and balances, and that really limits the harm that any single person or branch of government can do to the people. Fast forward to China, and you basically have an authoritarian government transforming into a dictatorship now that Xi is the mafia boss. There is no limit to the amount of bad stuff that can be done.
And just like you, I can't speak on behalf of everyone, but dare I say that the general consensus is that of course not all Trump supporters are racist. Yes, some people do support him/his policies for reasons other than racism, and that's perfectly fine.
But the issue at hand is that it's undeniable that there are several groups who are outspoken Trump supporters that are unsavoury at best. White supremacists; armed militias rounding up illegal immigrants; ICE; law enforcement agencies and unions with another long list of documented systemic racism; white terrorists shooting black churches, BLM protests, just black people, etc.
And the fact that Trump himself, as well as some Trump supporters are unwilling to label them for what they are is the issue.
I guess the tl;dr is: Not all Trump supporters are racist. But all racists support Trump.
Edit: To add, I know Zedbra donates a lot of clothes to charities and people in need - as well as doing many other things that are stellar in character. Why he sees political opinions as some sort of attack on his person is beyond me, a lot of the discussions we have here are towards 'groups' or a sort of hyperbole. Very rarely is it directed at one individual. Now, given the constant narrative from 'the right' that 'the left' are sensitive, maybe that too is another projection - but I digress. I know I've said this before and I'll say it again - if Zedbra is trapped in a house on fire, I won't hesitate to help him; and hopefully he feels the same way about me.
Thank you and yes, that was the point I was trying to make (one bad apple should not spoil the bunch) - but it obviously needed to play out a bit more here. The personal attacks part - that comes with this forum, but I expect it; it should not, however, stifel discussion and I welcome the opportunity to talk out the reasoning. Why others then need to use derogatory terms towards myself or others not 'on the hate wagon' - well, that's on them.
I would certainly help you and any others here that need it, any day. I teach my sons "you get places in life by people that you help. It may not be immediate, but eventually, good things happen to good people". I always add onto that, "don't let little people take up big space in your mind". People can deal with their own virtue in their own manner, I am not one to prevent their freedom of choice.
My opinion: people should really once again start practicing the virtue of agreeing to disagree; hence, I have never used your 'Fail' button. The States is fucked either side of their political colours, it's the same everywhere you go.
One of the issues of modernity is the separation of character from leadership. In the past, wisdom said that character and leadership are inseparable. You can't say someone is a good leader (getting things done effectively) and yet he/she acts like an ass. Character, class, integrity, yes even moral character is more important that an effective administrator. Now, it's who cares about the person and his private life, as long as the stock market continues to go up ... let's keep him in there .
This not only goes for the President of the USA, it goes for corporate CEO's, non-profit leaders, Civic leaders, professors, etc. As a starting point, read the Cole's notes on Plato's Republic on the definition of a leader.
The major difference worth pointing out here is -- the whole US political and legal system is practically defined on checks and balances, and that really limits the harm that any single person or branch of government can do to the people. Fast forward to China, and you basically have an authoritarian government transforming into a dictatorship now that Xi is the mafia boss. There is no limit to the amount of bad stuff that can be done.
Carry on now.
Yes you are right. The current system in US does have check and balance. And so far it is working out like it’s intended. But Trump has been trying his hardest to undo them and push the system til it cracks as best as it can.
China also started out with so call “check and balance”. Yes it’s not to the same scale the one in USA and their system was only intended To check personal ambition not a parties ambition. Before Xi, there was a ceremony hand off of power to the next person even if it’s the same party. Xi didn’t become mafia boss in one day. He slowly broke down the system in CCP and consolidated his power to what he is today. Everything begin with baby step, and pushing the limit of the system to see where it cracks.
China gave in to a fiscal first, morality last society policy the day the people decide that Tiananmen can be forgotten because economic matter more.
China got to where it is today literally because at one point the government made a show of force to let people know hey we can lead you to financial prosperity as long as you ignore this and this and this.
And the people went along, or rather needed to go along with it due to the abysmal economical condition China was in many decades ago. This Snowballing into something that is so ingrained in society that it is part of the national identity. When you get to the stage China is, there really is no going back.
Trumpism is just the infant stage of this. The constant masking of human suffering with da stock market gains
^I honestly think people's fiscal excuses are just that, excuses.
At what point does one moral and character not preclude your support? At what point does some meager perceived monetary benefits outweigh such obvious and insidious character flaws?
Trump's tax "cuts" amount to mere hundreds of dollars in savings for the average American per year, if not less. Does that overshadow all the other negatives Trump brings to the table?
I'm being a little hyperbolic here, but if Obama ran on the premise of hating white people and foreigners not black, denying a pandemic, enriching himself and his family through his presidency, appointing industry lackeys, fomenting hate on the left, all for me to save a couple hundred dollars on my taxes, I would NEVER support him. Period. Heck I was hard on Obama for much of his presidency, as were many progressives, look no further to see how much fire he received from the left during his 8 years in office.
Jesus Christ, Roy Moore, senator in Alabama, and a documented accused child molester lost his senate bid by a mere 1% point in the 2017 election. The only reason he barely lost his race was as a result of the rampant molestation accusations against him, and even then, he barely lost. You simply would not see that same support for a Democratic candidate with that type of baggage. Look how quickly Al Franken was dumped by the Dems for simply grabbing a woman's waist as a joke in a damn picture.
The same is the same with Trump, we're simply not seeing the expected culpability from his supporters, and that's what is so jarring here. He can do no wrong, no matter the depths of his depravity, his support never falters.
That's a real conservative problem here, or perhaps I'm naïve in thinking that the all mighty dollar shouldn't outweigh your common man.
Yes you are right. The current system in US does have check and balance. And so far it is working out like it’s intended. But Trump has been trying his hardest to undo them and push the system til it cracks as best as it can.
China also started out with so call “check and balance”. Yes it’s not to the same scale the one in USA and their system was only intended To check personal ambition not a parties ambition. Before Xi, there was a ceremony hand off of power to the next person even if it’s the same party. Xi didn’t become mafia boss in one day. He slowly broke down the system in CCP and consolidated his power to what he is today. Everything begin with baby step, and pushing the limit of the system to see where it cracks.
China gave in to a fiscal first, morality society policy the day the people decide that Tiananmen can be forgotten because economic matter more. The people carry as much blame as the government when they go along with the flow and decide that economic needed to come first.
Before you say well the people were oppress they can’t fight back etc etc. China history literally consist of the people overthrowing each and every dynasty because they were unplease for whatever reason.
China got to where it is today literally because at one point the government made a show of force to let people know hey we can lead you to financial prosperity as long as you ignore this and this and this.
And the people went along, or rather needed to go along with it due to the abysmal economical condition China was in many decades ago. This Snowballing into something that is so ingrained in society that it is part of the national identity. When you get to the stage China is, there really is no going back.
Trumpism is just the infant stage of this. The constant masking of human suffering with da stock market gains
Yes it’s different but also it is the same...
This. Traum have you not been following Trump's administration? There are many checks and balances we thought a president would have to follow, he's thrown them right out the window. We've seen these institutions in government are not what we perceived them to be, and don't have the teeth in which were expected.
-Require congress to authorize appointees? Naw.
-Having to testify when requested by a Grand Jury? Naw.
-Adhere to the Emoluments clause like all prior presidents? Naw.
-Concede an election when lost? Naw.
-The list goes on
Come on man, he's whittled away so many of the checks and balances in these 4 years, he's precedents that will be very difficult to ever correct in the future.
I can't say I follow the Trump administration at as fine a level as you have mentioned. What I do see though, is that a lot of Trump's idiotic executive orders got shutdown by the courts.
As far as tipping the balance and chipping away at the restraints that were built into the system, I'd say the most significant damage Trump has done were the massive number of judge appointments under his presidency, with Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett's appointments to the Supreme Court being the most significant. If I am understanding things correctly though, the problem really came from the Democrats themselves when they relaxed the federal court appointment requirement. So in that sense, Trump was merely milking a Democratic policy for all it is worth, so I don't think it is right to blame Trump alone for tilting the system.
I can't say I follow the Trump administration at as fine a level as you have mentioned. What I do see though, is that a lot of Trump's idiotic executive orders got shutdown by the courts.
As far as tipping the balance and chipping away at the restraints that were built into the system, I'd say the most significant damage Trump has done were the massive number of judge appointments under his presidency, with Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett's appointments to the Supreme Court being the most significant. If I am understanding things correctly though, the problem really came from the Democrats themselves when they relaxed the federal court appointment requirement. So in that sense, Trump was merely milking a Democratic policy for all it is worth, so I don't think it is right to blame Trump alone for tilting the system.
You're not understanding things correctly, and I guess that's my issue here. You haven't applied a proper understanding of an issue to which you've decided to form an opinion on.
Let me give you a history lesson, much of whatever rightwing media you're following loves to utilize the tactic of revisionist history, specific to the point you just made. You convey a lie enough times, it becomes the truth.
You're referring to the "nuclear option" Harry Reid utilized back in 2013, correct? Do you remember why the Democrats had to utilize that option? It was due to the fact that the Republicans, who touted in 2008, Obama would be a lame-duck president, with nothing passed or appointed. What did they do from there? Even while Democrats still controlled the Senate (2009-2015), Republicans filibustered pretty much all of his nominees, essentially making it impossible for him to elect a judicial nominee, because of course in their eyes, why should that N-word be able to appoint a judge?
You have to realize their filibustering was unprecedented in any prior administrations, and was only imposed against the first black president. Thus in 2013 the so-called nuclear option was invoked and the Senate rules were changed, meaning that a simple majority vote would suffice for all nominees except for the Supreme Court.
A brief history lesson on the subject, let this be clear, this was not started by Democrats, but rather the utter cynicism by the Republican party who wanted to provide Obama with none of the authorities levied to every prior president before him.
I swear, the Republicans are like school children in a fight. They poke you and poke you until you punch back, the minute you punch back, they cry foul and say you started it
So Sidney Powell was speaking at that same press conference above with Rudy standing behind her to say that Hugo Chavez, who died in 2013, planned this electoral coup with his voting software..........
Btw the software is only used for in-person voting that Trump won, not mail-in votes... okay so, yah, go ahead throw out all the in-person voting Biden wins even bigger.
Please Trump ... keep Giuliani as your lead lawyer in this legal battle against the election results. Do NOT fire him. Biden won't have a thing to worry about.
Members of a Michigan militia group had more planned than just kidnapping the state's governor.
Last month, the FBI discovered a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D) and try her for "treason," arresting 14 militia members allegedly involved in the effort. But beyond that task, court filings also reveal the men planned to publicly execute other public officials, or if all else failed, burn down the state house entirely, ABC7 Chicago reports.
While just 14 men have been arrested in the plot so far, they had a "Plan B" that "involved a takeover of the Michigan capitol building by 200 combatants who would stage a week-long series of televised executions of public officials," ABC7 reports. Plan C involved burning down the statehouse with its legislators locked inside, "leaving no survivors," ABC7 continues. These plots all unfolded as Whitmer and Michigan's government implemented lockdowns to stop the spread of COVID-19.
The conspirators also allegedly planned to kidnap Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam (D), the FBI reported last month. Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker told reporters this week he gets threats daily. Still, some of the men arrested have gotten bond reductions and are now free.
Michigan militia members and other opponents of COVID-19 lockdowns have repeatedly protested in front of the Michigan statehouse — and in one case stormed into it, with many protesters carrying guns.
__________________ 1991 Toyota Celica GTFour RC // 2007 Toyota Rav4 V6 // 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee
1992 Toyota Celica GT-S ["sold"] \\ 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD [sold] \\ 2000 Jeep Cherokee [sold] \\ 1997 Honda Prelude [sold] \\ 1992 Jeep YJ [sold/crashed] \\ 1987 Mazda RX-7 [sold] \\ 1987 Toyota Celica GT-S [crushed]
Quote:
Originally Posted by maksimizer
half those dudes are hotter than ,my GF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevYouUp
reading this thread is like waiting for goku to charge up a spirit bomb in dragon ball z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_KarMa
OH thank god. I thought u had sex with my wife. :cry:
mikemhg can you help shed some light on the first step act and if that's a factor in the increase of african american trump voters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by threezero
It's really okay to support Trump for his fiscal policies. That is probably his only redeeming quality as a leader.
But those that do support Trump JUST for his fiscal policies while ignoring every other morally questionable antic of his have no grounds to stand when discussing non-fiscal related issue.
his anti-science stance is frightening
but also interesting to see how America did as world police since 2016
cozied up with Russia
hot and cold on China
almost cuban crisis'd with Iran
mini trade war with Canada
tried to deescalate NK
decoupled from WHO
armed Taiwan with decent hardware
kept ISIL/Syrian govt in check
lots of dangerous tweets and i'm sure i'm missing a few considerations but overall seems less warmongering than the establishment?
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