And that price is only with 2 million liability, and I didn't bother adding my wife because that would have been another $100 a year even though she might drive it once in a calendar year.

I have a hard time believing someone in my situation would be paying more in a different province. I get the arguments that private insurance can fuck you over if you're a shitty driver or if you have a modified vehicle but I'm over it, I'm a safe driver and my rates have consistently gone up over the last 6 years when I've owned the same vehicle and done nothing wrong.

People might think it's stupid to not pay for 5 million liability but at those prices I'm happy with a dash cam and my ability to not cause an at fault accident.

My rate is up 20% with this year's renewal. I'm fucking pissed.

10 years experience, no accidents, newer vehicle with the discount safety features. Need to check with my broker at work and bitch.

^ that scares me. I'm due for renewal next month and last year my insurance went up $300. The base rate went up to insane amounts in the last few years as well.. almost $7000 now to insure a WRX with no discount!

FYI, the break even point (assuming no claims) under the new system is 15 years of experience. It also starts counting experience now from when you got your class 7 (N) rather than your L like under the old system.

https://www.bcuc.com/Documents/Proce...esentation.pdf

Page 15

This was on a one year old RAV4 Hybrid. I shopped optional, and BCAA is a full $1k cheaper.

thats a good thing. unlike majority of the people on RS who prob got their 7N 1 year after getting their 7L, there are ppl out there who held onto their 7L for many years without the need to drive themselves or have a car to drive. these ppl would be out there with lets say 10 years of "driving experiencing" with 9/10 of those years as a 7L driver who barely drove. one might argue that driving with a 7L is still driving experience, if that driver doesnt bother with getting their 7N asap to drive themselves, they prob dont want to bother with the hassle of driving with a qualified supervisor in the first place.

Mine went down! not a lot i think 30 bucks or something. amounted to 2 bucks a month less

is 20% 200 bucks or 2,000 ?

I know I didn't specify, went from $3k to $3.6k.

Double post, but had an interesting development when trying to renew with BCAA. It's a phone call away, but in order to switch away from ICBC optional on a lease, you need a power of attorney form from the issuing manufacturer's financial services company.

Liability and all that, but it sounds like a convoluted way to anchor lessees to ICBC. I was told by the BCAA broker that ICBC have signed a blanket agreement with most common financial companies, but private insurers have not?

^ more reasons to get rid of icbc :ilied:

went to submit a document today at the drivers license office, the guy needed to speak to 2 managers, said it was processed but i still need to send it in by mail FailFish

Whoever you leased form will have clear stipulations for what the minimum level of insurance they require is

I do have an understanding of minimum coverage requirements, but changing optional from ICBC to private has to be one of the most unnecessary requirements I’ve ever seen. Requiring a power of attorney form to change providers has to be one of the most asinine things on the consumer side. Yes the financial services company needs to protect its asset, but I don’t really hear this being a problem elsewhere as the rest of the country has more diverse options to handle both basic and optional.

It makes sense to me... if my asset is out there in the wilds I don't want to deal with 2 different companies when something goes wrong because you wanted to save some money. What's in it for me at that point as the one with all the liability? At least my lawyers know exactly what ICBC covers and does not cover, not the litany of other 3rd party companies with any number of differing policies or restrictions out there... there's just no way.

Leasing sucks, its a terrible financial decision save for some business writeoff stuff... so just another reason you should stay away from it.

Curious what brand? I had a hell of a time switching my BMW lease to BCAA insurance, but it had absolutely nothing to do with ICBC and everything to do with BMW signing an agreement with Allwest, and Allwest has all the right to govern what minimum coverage you have.

On a side note, Allwest as a company is fucking retarded and their processes needs a HUGE shake. They sent us a letter to renew a Mini Cooper that was NOT ours, included the registration number, plates, address, and a bunch of personal info of the other owner. In this day and age of massive security breaches, that kind of negligence is simply unacceptable.

It’s Toyota. They don’t have the same issue as BMW considering that I know for a fact every dealership uses a different company for in house insurance. So it’s the opposite of your situation.

Can you expound on this in terms of leasing?

I've heard so many arguments about financing vs. leasing. I lease my vehicle myself, but it's not written off for business purposes.

I'm legitimately curious your thoughts on how leasing is a bad idea, financing is preferred?

I figured I've always preferred leasing since I tend to get bored of my vehicles after 3 years, and like the idea of simply walking away once the term is over. Enlighten me please, I need it :lol

I'll let 68style speak to this in more detail, but in general, when leasing, you, the driver of the car, do not own the vehicle (the asset.) You are simply paying the owner (in this case, let's use BMW as an example) to use the asset from BMW for a fixed duration, and a fixed amount of mileage (plus whatever additional mileage you incur, including repairs etc.) What you are effectively doing is covering the cost of depreciation by using the vehicle. At the end of the lease, you return it to BMW and get a new car from let's say Lexus or Acura etc. Problems/repairs, and what have you, are the liability of BMW, and not you, hence why BMW will want to ensure whoever insures (the insurance company) their vehicle, meets their financial and risk policies/requirements.

Aside from the usual business expense write-off (its not as glamorous as everyone thinks) you cannot declare a leased vehicle as an asset. It is a liability in most cases. Say if you went to the bank tomorrow to apply for a mortgage, your mortgage specialist will ask you to declare your assets and liabilities. You can't tell them the vehicle you own is worth $14,500 (or whatever it is) because you don't own it; BMW does. Whereas let's say you actually owned/financed a vehicle, you own the vehicle, so if you chose to only drive your brand new BMW M3 with only basic insurance, that's on you, and the asset itself, is worth, I don't know, let's say $76,000 to the bank, then that is your declared asset to the bank, and they may or may not hold the vehicle as collateral in the event you default on your mortgage. They come in, repo it, and fuck you up for a long ways to come to recoup their losses. When you lease it, they can't do that.

Edit: I would go out on a limb to say that leasing is not "bad" it just depends on your circumstances, situation, and short and long term goals. There are pros and cons to both methods of vehicle ownership, but that deserves another thread in itself.

^ You might "own" the M3, but if you owe 76K instead of 40K for the lease duration, that might change a few things.

+1 on it varies depending on situation.

Some of it bcrdrukes said, but it should be considered a luxury purchase... and you provided the main of 2 reasons I can think of, 1 being you just like to switch cars every 3 years and the 2nd being in the case of most German cars, only keeping it as long as it has a warranty lol

The thing is, you are continually keeping a car during the period of time when it depreciates the most, and you are paying the manufacturer (or their financial / investment arm) for it. Plus interest. When a company leases you a vehicle, the residual value is calculated based on what they predict they can sell the vehicle for 3 years from now... a very very conservative figure I'm sure you can appreciate, and far lower than you would actually be able to sell that car for, with a maximum of your agreed upon mileage. They take out a loan on said vehicle from the bank, and then set about collecting payments from you which offset that loan. Then, when they get the car back in 3 years, they sell it for quite a bit more than the residual value actually is for as per plan.

In addition, you pay for any damages to the vehicle to put it in tip-top shape, you're not allowed to modify it so there's no risk of that messing anything up AND, in keeping in line with this discussion thread, you're paying pretty much the most expensive version of insurance at all times that you could possibly pay.

All in all, you're paying a vastly inflated monthly rate, protecting the dealer from depreciation, guaranteeing them a quality vehicle to resell for good profit at conclusion of your lease and covering any damages against your name or out of your pocket during that time. So, financially, its a pretty poor move... but if your prerogative is to own a different and new vehicle every few years and never worry about maintenance or out of warranty work... then yes it might work for you.

Financing is only a good idea if you actually have the cash to purchase the vehicle but instead you invest it and the interest rate on the money borrowed is less than your investment interest. Ie: a 0% or 0.9% promotion. Or you want to build credit. Often manufacturers don't allow cash back incentives on financed vehicles, only on cash purchases... so you give that opportunity away.

At the end of the day, no matter how you do it, buying any brand new car is an absolute waste of money. Buying used, even if it's only a couple years old in most cases, is immeasurably smarter financially by comparison... but again, it's what you want in your life and are willing to personally pay for that.

How indepth do you want to tallk about tax impact on lease vs buy? :pokerface:

Leasing a car is preferred from a tax-savings point of view since the whole payment can potentially be used to reduce taxable income (up to $800/month). When the car is purchased, only the interest portion of the loan payment (if any) and the CCA "depreciation"of the car (valued up to $30,000) can be used to reduce taxes. What i mean is that, if your purchase/financed a car worth more than $30k, the amount exceeding $30k doesn't benefit you for tax purposes. This is where leasing is an advantageous.


When the car is leased, there are more tax deductions, but the trade-off normally is a higher cash outflow. If your business can handle that cash outflow, great, lease it up.

i took cash incentive with financing and there's no prepayment penalty in canada
depreciation doesnt matter if you drive it until wheels fall off

unless you're buying a 1-owner with full records there's always a question mark going used route...peace of mind and the exact colours/option is nice so i didn't mind destination for a factory order but yeah taxes hurt :(

For buyers who are looking for the latest safety/convenience features, the total cost of ownership after accounting for wear items/maintenance on the lightly used car, total cost to own isn't too different with a good lease.

I've included a scenario and some assumptions that apply for my scenario below:

Key correction here, mortgage specialist (and banks) will also see financing a car as a liability. I know this because I just paid off the 2015 Civic (in my display picture) to qualify for a larger loan.

Another key caveat to business write offs on financing / leasing - it is all dependent on the business mileage : total mileage ratio. A common misconception is that you can write off the car entirely. This is incorrect. Unless it is a purpose built vehicle, like a dump truck, it is very unlikely that it will be 100% business mileage. You will get audited. Be prepared to provide a mileage log for that tax year and your future tax years. In my experience, once you get audited, it's much more likely that you will continue to get audited in consecutive years.

Having said that, leasing/financing a Zero Emissions Vehicle is a good idea, as current incentives allow you to write off 100% of the CCA in the first year, as compared to 30%. Of course, the length of the incentive, is still business mileage dependent. Max is 55K vehicle I believe



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I hope nobody budgets $2k for brake pads and tires on a RAV-4, I'd expect to spend somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of that... but semantics I suppose, we'll use those numbers regardless.

Your lease is not free of maintenance, you're on the hook for brakes above a certain% and tire tread depth being above a certain amount when you return a lease... so tack another $2k on top of your TCO for the lease as well then. You also have to put cash down, nobody does $0 down leases for regular people, so you lose that cash that you put down too. BMW website suggests that minimum downpayment on a lease in the USA is $2,500 which puts you at $497.04 on a base model 330i per month. I have a hard time believing you'd find a base model demo for lease, it's going to be loaded so you're not going to be leasing one for $400 a month with nothing down. That's also with only a 10,000 mile per year limit, which isn't a lot, if you up it to 16,000 miles per year the payment goes up to $531 a month.

So realistically I'd say your TCO on the BMW for 3 years is more like $22-$24,000 whereas the proverbial RAV-4 assuming your depreciation numbers are correct and the maintenance costs are as high as you've put is still only $13,000

That's a huge difference. Nevermind the fact the curve flattens on a good quality purchased vehicle... the RAV-4's depreciation slows... the maintenance most likely doesn't get any worse... so a further 3 years might only be another $6,000-10,000 at most.... whereas you go get another BMW or whatever and you're dropping another $20,000+ all over again.