PSA: VPD Handing Out VIs Like Candy

[GabAlmighty]

I still find it funny how pretty much everyone is getting dinged for noise violation/exhaust stuff... Yet nowhere has anyone been able to find a concrete testing method, let alone the actual number...

Originally Posted by Traum

I personally see different interpretations can be argued here, and my own personal take is, I still don't see anything in the MVA or CVSE manual that disallows vehicle ride height changes as long as the change is within 10cm, and no other MVA / CVSE inspection requirements are violated.

I would say, ride height adjustable cars are ok as that is the "manufacturers setting". Technically when lowering your car, you could see if there's a manufacturer/oem lowered version and go down 1.5" from that height as it's a manufacturers' numbers.

Furthermore, the "sagged" part is interesting as that would mean any truck, or car for that matter, with a load on it would be eligible for a VI...

[FatalCloud]

Originally Posted by jonny123

Standard according to ? What can we quote this if we notice that he is shoving that thing in the exhaust tip?

Also, *DOES* the dB test need to be performed at a designated inspection facility to be valid, as previously suggested?

SAE International standards

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by joonzn6

Not sure if this is very relevant to us or not, but Perrin got back to me with their sound tests with their LOUDEST exhaust that they make for the 86 platform, and this is the data:

https://monosnap.com/file/17CbGSrD9n...5o5gQ9Tda7EO03

Here is the email itself:

https://imgur.com/a/IWIMOfJ

Something tells me Cain did not follow the proper procedure for conducting a sound test...

I can guarantee it was not done properly. Also When was the mic last calibrated. They can be 10 or more DB's off.

[Traum]

So I got in touch with Sgt Lee of the VPD Professional Standards Section (PSS) yesterday. We spent about 45 min over the phone discussing the complaint that I have filed. Sgt Lee has been courteous and professional throughout the telephone conversation, and I appreciate the time and effort he has put in to respond to my complaint.

As a quick summary of sorts, I would say that while I appreciate the time and effort that Sgt Lee has taken to respond to my complaint as well as the various acknowledgments that he has made regarding my concerns, on many occasions I felt like we were respectful members on opposing sides of a disagreement. Our views and motivations on the issues are different, and at times, our conversation wasn't so much a discussion, but a respectful presentation of our differing views, and the acknowledgment of such. At other times, Sgt Lee has expressed that there are limitations to what he / the PSS can do regarding my concerns, and I was more or less expecting that as well.

After having our conversation, one key impression that I have come to see is, as part of the local automotive community, we really need to speak up and make more noise. In Sgt Lee's own words (or as close as I can remember), he encourages everyone to speak up for their rights. And until the Department starts receiving a larger number of complaints on the VI situation, the higher ups are probably not going to take any meaningful action to change things.

[Traum]

The following are some of the points that I think might be of interest to the general RS community:

- I think Sgt Lee quite openly implied/acknowledged that the VPD is aware of the higher number of VI's that have been written up, esp by a certain officer that we all know about. They have spoken to the officer(s), and unsurprisingly, the officer(s) deny they were targeting a specific group of people. Instead, it is about safety, and the officer(s) back up their claims citing examples with more extreme modifications.

IMO, it is difficult to argue against that because that is more or less a model answer any typical police officer would have said. We all know what those more extreme examples might look like, and while the community knows innocent people and those with mild modifications undeserving of citations have been dragged into this, the more extreme examples continue to give the police legitimacy to keep doing what they have been doing. And without a willingness to speak up, we'd never be able to get out of this mess. (IMO, that most effective way is to file an official complaint with the police.)

- On the issue of the VPD officer sending vehicles to dealerships, Sgt Lee said to me that the ticketing officer(s) was claiming how he/they had previously come across situations where certain vehicle inspection facilities were doing a sloppy job in their inspections, passing cars that should not have been passed. Again, when the reasoning / model answer is presented like that, it is difficult to argue against it. Furthermore, the MVA specifically grants the ticketing officer the power to do this. (Section 7.08 of the MVA)

- Regarding my complaint on camber, Sgt Lee thinks there is very little he/VPD can do. He agreed that in the example I have presented using my own vehicle (where the manufacturer specs allows for rear camber up to 2.something°, meaning the camber will be obviously visible but is also non-adjustable), the current clause in the MVA doesn't sound right. But this issue is really more of a thing for the legislative arm of the provincial government to act on / respond to. This does not surprise me one bit because it is precisely what I had expected when I was drafting up my complaint. Sgt Lee mentioned that he will report back to his superior on how the MVA is unfair to some cars (such as mine). But without a larger volume of complaints, I don't expect any meaningful changes can occur.

- For my vehicle lowering complaint, Sgt Lee did not comment on the actual legal aspects of it, nor the (legal) accuracy of my accusations. I was disappointed about that, but again, it does not surprise me one bit. Instead, he suggested that I should contact CVSE to find out whether there are any clauses in the inspection manual that specifically allows/disallows vehicle lowering (within a 10cm height change). Another option he mentioned is to seek some legal advice from a lawyer that also happens to be an automotive enthusiast. Of course, that'd very quickly become cost-prohibitive, and I obviously cannot afford to do that.

- For VI, Sgt Lee acknowledge that currently there is no recourse for "wrongfully" given VI's, and that may seem unfair (esp when a finance cost will be incurred by the vehicle owner). At the same time, there are also no mechanisms in place to prevent the vehicle owner from receiving a VI with "illegal mods", changing back to stock, passing the VI, and claims that he has been wrongfully issued the citation. The only recommendation he can offer on this issue is for us to exercise our rights and speak up.

And on this note, because there is a real and tangible penalty imposed on the vehicle owner, the guilty-until-proven-innocent connotation and the lack of recourse for the wrongfully accused clearly violates the presumption of innocence that is our fundamental legal principle. In that sense, I think there is a strong argument that we can put forth. I plan on doing that in a separate complaint, but again, I won't be able to get to that any time soon. If others would like to come forward to take this on, or would like to include it as part of your complaint if you are already planning for one, I would very much encourage you to do so.

* * *

Going forward, Sgt Lee has indicated that if I want to, I can continue to pursue my complaint under service and policy complaints, and he will assist me in setting that up. Reading between the lines, however, I feel like this is VPD's subtle reminder that my complaint will be closed if I don't do anything soon. And with the way my questions / concerns are handled, I can't shake off the feeling that this initial step of the complaint process is really just a combined PR effort + screening process to cut down on the actual number of complaints the VPD has to process. From a business / PR management point of view, I am not at all surprised by it. But I am not going to be satisfied with a response like that.

The wheels of justice turn slowly, and it is aggravating that we have to go through and put up with all this when all I want to do is enjoy my car. But I will not relent -- at least, not at this point -- because the whole situation is still pissing me off.

[320icar]

This may be a totally dumb question, but it’s pretty obvious this is limited to not just VPD, but a specific group within them. So is there any validity to people like myself who don’t (and never have or plan to) live in Vancouver to complain? Right now it’s been 4 months since I’ve driven into Vancouver, and so far I don’t mcuh care. But come summer when cars and coffee are happening, or going to north van to go hiking etc. All that will be scratched off my list if my lowered car (within the bounds of the MVA) is just going to get pullled over

[nexusxv]

Well, I hope it would chill out Cain and co a bit... Even talking to higher ups should not be best experience and may be would create feeling that he is watched

[bcedhk]

Traum, you da real MVP.

Do you have the contact information or case number in which other members, including myself, can voice our complaint to the said officer and the general enforcement?

I think we need to band together as a community to get this pushed higher up cause I am sure there are a long list of other complaints that will be overshadowed if we don't continue to voice our concerns.

[JCWMINI]

Just a bit update regarding this: I filed an official complaint with the police commissioner and now pending result. If you want more detail regarding the process, please PM me.

Here is an acknowledgement from the commissioner:

"The Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner received your registered complaint regarding
the Vancouver Police Department on January 12, 2019.

The first step in the complaint process is for our office to review your complaint and determine
whether it is admissible under the Police Act. In order for your complaint or a part of the
complaint to be admissible under the legislation, the complaint must:

- Describe conduct by a member that would, if substantiated, constitute misconduct as
defined by the Act;
- Be submitted within 12 months of the date of the incident referred to; and
- Not contain frivolous or vexatious allegations.

Should we require further information to assist us in making a decision on admissibility, an
analyst with our office will contact you. You will be informed of our decision shortly.
Further, should your complaint be determined to be admissible and identified as appropriate
for informal resolution or mediation, the assigned analyst will contact you to discuss this option
in greater detail.

Thank you,
Intake Services
Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner"

[Traum]

Originally Posted by bcedhk

Do you have the contact information or case number in which other members, including myself, can voice our complaint to the said officer and the general enforcement?

I think we need to band together as a community to get this pushed higher up cause I am sure there are a long list of other complaints that will be overshadowed if we don't continue to voice our concerns.

You brought up a very good point that I have forgotten to ask Sgt Lee all along -- I didn't ask for a case number, and he never mentioned it. I wouldn't second guess the sergeant though, and I will just ask him in our next correspondence since I am supposed to provide him with some follow up information.

While I don't see any issues in sharing the contents of the discussion I've had with Sgt Lee or my case number (when I receive it), I don't think it is appropriate for me to give out the sergeant's contact information, even when it is just his work contact info. (I am definitely not pulling a Duke.) If anyone else in the community files a complaint, they will be assigned a staff / officer to respond to their complaint, and that person will provide you with their (work) contact information.

Please bear in mind that currently, my complaint is being processed by the VPD PSS. The OPCC has gotten back to me after my initial email (complaint) to inform me that what I have submitted to them wasn't admissible (see post #1554).

[BIC_BAWS]

Hey guys, I've been pretty inactive on this issue as of late. Honestly, I'm pretty burnt out from it.

But a big thank you to Traum and others for getting this ball rolling. Myself, and presumably the community are very grateful. I agree that we all need to do something about this. It's a far safer option than the aggressive option of going to the media.

Rick, thank you again for all your persistence in this issue.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[joonzn6]

Was passing by Lotus Vancouver earlier today maybe around 1-2 hours ago, and noticed a cop walking around the inside apparently doing some questioning to the staff? Kind of curious what they talked about.

[snowball]

Originally Posted by joonzn6

Was passing by Lotus Vancouver earlier today maybe around 1-2 hours ago, and noticed a cop walking around the inside apparently doing some questioning to the staff? Kind of curious what they talked about.

Hopefully not scare tactics used to intimidate them into no longer being so helpful to the concerned member in this thread? But would that surprise us?

[ButterFingers]

lol theyre clearly looking at this thread, wouldnt hurt to ask the dealer

[joonzn6]

Originally Posted by ButterFingers

lol theyre clearly looking at this thread, wouldnt hurt to ask the dealer

Gave them a call and they said that they can't disclose that information.

[ButterFingers]

Originally Posted by joonzn6

Gave them a call and they said that they can't disclose that information.

Based on their reply, probably did, haha.

[DoughBoy]

Fuck the police

[DaJo]

Originally Posted by DoughBoy

Fuck the certain individuals

Fixed!

[Gh0stRider]

Originally Posted by DoughBoy

Fuck the police

Fuck DoughBoy

[yray]

such efficency, should put cain on the mail box thieves

[yourself]

It’s good they are in there. The entire dealer industry is full of crooks.

[twitchyzero]

welp, it's over
modified scene in Vancouver is officially dead
thanks for putting up a good fight Traum

[bomberR17]

Time to stick to stock cars.

[CorneringArtist]

Who wants an RHD car? If it's going to slide like this and I basically can't drive west of Metrotown, I'm done having something unique.

[JDMDreams]

It's a good thing, now maybe lotus has legitimate evidence that businesses are being harassed too.