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this is a political, economical and police strategy issue that affects your fundamental right and freedoms given to you as a member of this great society. Your right to free expression is infringed if fear of unlawful or overbearing state enforcement makes you decide not to lower your car or paint it pink because its "heat"
Why is no one sending their videos in and posting pics of their cars? This is very simple, fear of police retaliation. Imagine a sergeant who knows you, and your car. Have fun driving then.
People really aren't coming to into vancouver anymore
first off, thanks for a well-written response. Many good points without having to resort to name-calling
as always, there are reasonable limits to expression of freedom
Quote:
Freedom of expression in Canada is not absolute; Section 1 of the Charter allows the government to pass laws that limit free expression so long as the limits are reasonable and can be justified in a free and democratic society.
this argument reminds me of the FOBs in school that does something disgusting, and when you glare at them their defense is "what, it's a fwee cuntrie!"
i feel sorry for those worried about police retaliation in Canada. This is not Russia nor Indonesia. you oughta have pretty bad encounter, watched too many black lives matter coverage or a not so clean record to be that afraid of law enforcement if fear of backlash is what keeps you up at night
I have zero comprehension how anyone posting on a car forum who is interested in cars can be posting against or naysaying this movement.
If you are, give your head a shake and re-evaluate what your hobby actually even is, cuz apparently it’s just being “devil’s advocate” and not a car enthusiast. I guess some people’s username itself should be a hint as to their actual intentions here.
It’s already an uphill battle without you negative nancies who say there’s no issue or fighting it won’t work. 90+ pages of posts say otherwise. My daily driver is 100% stock and I personally have nothing to worry about from this, but the sudden overextension of powers makes me livid. It should make any car enthusiast livid.
Seriously, I have no idea what some of you goofs saying the VPD are justified or trying to shoot efforts down are even a member of this forum for. You call yourselves realists? Fuck right off and shame on you if any of you self righteous pricks ever once sped even 1km/h over the limit or crossed any road not at an intersection cuz VPD could suddenly out of nowhere excessively enforce every law the same way. You going to sit there like a cuckold saying “Well technically speaking I did break the law, pay to play and all that” and just take it then too?
give your narrow-minded head a shake if you discredit people as car enthusiasts solely because they don't drive or agree with a jacked up F350 or a stanced nissan
and is this really a car forum any more? when's the last time we had a forum-wide meet? when's the last time mechanical thread or what i did to my car had active discussion? it's mostly craigslist posts, potato pics of their vehicle (of which we can easily just do on instagram), and throw in some real estate talks.
my biggest concern and empathy is for the corporate/businesses affected, not so much for the individuals. I did at first but the lack of cohesion in finding a solution has made me apathetic to it.
like i've said before, it's a criticism if you provide a solution. Otherwise, it's just bitching and whining. People want to go after this from abuse of power angle, nope still nothing concrete. but hey, at least they had a game plan.
who is more entitled? me wanting less cars on the road in Vancouver (see snow thread where morning commutes was cut down Friday morning), or for the modified scene wanting to hold onto their freedom of expression in what's already a grey area of the law?
Hey. I can't believe I'm saying this but, Trollface is right. What he's saying has been reflected by other long time users of RS as well. He's not wrong, he just doesn't communicate it well. We gotta get our story straight which is ultimately what the devil's advocate has been saying. Honestly, I've gotten lost in 90 pages. Most it is crap, so it would be nice if others can post about what I've forgotten.
Here's what I have:
1. It's bullshit that the police can issue another VI, right after passing in an inspection facility.
They argue that some shops pass without due care. But this is not within their job scope. The overseeing authority that issues inspection licenses is ICBC. They know best regarding this area.
See Note 3 as CVSE and MVA are different. Inspection facilities use CVSE guidelines.
2. There is argument to be made that VI or Notice to Comply infringes against our justice system and further, our rights. Our justice system provides no recourse when a VI is issued. The receiving party quite literally just has to take it. This could be a large number that many people cannot afford.
VIs are guilty until proven innocent.
The police can be entirely in the wrong for issuing an incorrect VI, but there is nothing you can do about it.
No court, no system that reimburses you for your time and money, nothing.
3. The guidelines of the MVA and CVSE are not aligned. Ultimately, they say different things.
MVA says no visible camber, but the CVSE guidelines allow for a threshold.
This is because from factory there are such mfg recommended thresholds which they know that load changes suspension geometry and to an extent visible camber increases safety.
4. The officers that are issuing VIs evidently do not have full knowledge of the MVA. They use the MVA system to issue infractions, yet they don't know that they are misinformed.
We know this through multiple instances of lowered height, visible camber, exhaust "loudness", etc.
5. Despite being potentially wrong, the officers have been seen in multiple instances "creating laws" to back up their case.
License plate positioning (RE: White BMW 2 series on the Granville Bridge + other cases)
MVA: Must be securely mounted to the front of the car.
Police: Must be mounted in the center. You cannot use tow hook mounts. This is wrong.
Non-OEM wheels (RE: every single car that has been issued a VI with aftermarket or painted wheels)
MVA: No information on it.
CVSE: Must be Canada DOT approved (which usually if it's approved in the USA, it's approved here).
Police: You cannot have aftermarket or painted wheels.
This infringes on an entire industry, suggesting that the entire industry is illegal. Furthermore, it can be argued that it infringes on your right to have freedom to expression.
Aftermarket suspension (RE: all cars that don't bounce when the police presses down on your car)
MVA: Can be changed within 10cm of factory specification. Headlights must be mounted at 54(?) cm off the ground. With a flat tire, your lowest point of the car cannot touch the ground.
CVSE: -someone input this-
Police: You cannot change anything. You must use MFG branded parts.
Note: Some cars like the Subaru Spec-Bs come with Bilstein B8s, BMWs with Sachs, others with Ohlins.
Visible camber (RE - all cars that they see with visible camber including fresh off the lot cars)
MVA: Wheels cannot poke outside of the fender.
CVSE: Factory specific thresholds for camber.
Police: No visible camber.
Most cars come cambered from factory - take a look at a BMW show room.
Aftermarket headlights (RE - old cars like the Lexus GS that came from factory with projectors)
MVA: Must be DOT approved.
CVSE: Must be aimed correctly; not blinding. The headlamps must be mounted at a height of not less than 56 cm and not more than 1.37 m. The distance counts from the Center of the light or bulb (needs clarification). Headlights should be DOT or E labeled, but brake lights and turn signals can be SAE [CVSE lights]
Police: If it doesn't look like it belongs, it's illegal.
Aftermarket exhaust systems / Excessive Noise (RE - FRS/BRZ that got VI'd right after purchase.)
MVA: You cannot modify the exhaust system in any way. You cannot have excessive noise - defined within a threshold. Each exhaust tip must be the exact same diameter. Threshold = 86 db (?)
CVSE: Threshold = 86 db (?)
Police: All cars are illegal if they don't sound like what they expect. You cannot change factory.
Reality: BMW M performance, Jaguar F-Type, MOST MFG cars now crackle and pop from factory. If the cars were approved for sale in Canada, they are legal.
4cylinder cars sound different from 6 or 8 cylinder cars.
There should be more information in this thread. This thread was originally purposed to gather information. Seeing that with 90 pages and most recently lots of troll posts, it's not very useful in gathering information. However, it is very evident that there are facts in this thread as many of us has done the research. I'd rather not waste all our efforts.
This is a Google docs link where you can help me inform the media of specific instances and points to bring up. If you have the time and knowledge, please add to it, as I will be bringing this to the media.
When adding points please specify your source or specific instances (ie. MVA, Section 1, Chapter 2, Note 3. ; CVSE: S(1),C(2),N(3); Westopher's car/Skunkworks car/FRS)
I will be constantly monitoring this document for trolls and document accuracy. It is currently open to edit by anybody but I will change it to comment on if need be. Please follow the above guidelines. If you have a comment, use the comment feature. If you have a suggested change, use the suggestion feature. There is the feature of revision history, so I will be able to see what has been modified.
The headlamps must be mounted at a height of not less than 56 cm and not more than 1.37 m. The distance counts from the Center of the light or bulb (do not remember exactly as is i have 7 inch standard light)
Headlights should be DOT or E labeled, but breaks and turns can be SAE
give your narrow-minded head a shake if you discredit people as car enthusiasts solely because they don't drive or agree with a jacked up F350 or a stanced nissan
and is this really a car forum any more? when's the last time we had a forum-wide meet? when's the last time mechanical thread or what i did to my car had active discussion? it's mostly craigslist posts, potato pics of their vehicle (of which we can easily just do on instagram), and throw in some real estate talks.
Narrow minded, that’s precious
Who said anything about jacked up 350’s or stanced Nissan’s? Have any of those people complained? No. Most of the guys getting donged are lowered mildly with mild exhaust or custom rims. A fellow IS300 driver came here who had a HKS and lowering springs. BRZ with legal exhaust. Another FRS just lowered. westophers BMW, the Fiat, heck I’ll even give the Jeeps a pass with their off-road gear they’re not hurting anyone. Lowered Nissan 350z.
Not one person on here cried for any stanced Nissan or whatever the heck you’re talking about.
Re: your other stuff... why are you even here then? Personal torture? If you’re so disillusioned with the discussions here I’m surprised you’re here.
The headlamps must be mounted at a height of not less than 56 cm and not more than 1.37 m. The distance counts from the Center of the light or bulb (do not remember exactly as is i have 7 inch standard light)
Headlights should be DOT or E labeled, but breaks and turns can be SAE
Addition To MVA (i guess the cvsa is the same)
Reflectors MUST: rear red, sides-back red, sides-front - only yellow. DOT or SAE.
Running lights - must. Should be on automatically with ignition.
(this one i see a lot, especially with local cars)
Car should not start without pressing the clutch (breaker switch on clutch)
Hey. I can't believe I'm saying this but, Trollface is right.
No, trollface isn't right. He still thinks its Dukes fault(watch the video), he doesn't realize people have been getting VI's for 10+YEARS, and the car community has been discouraged to death thanks to police. There is no car scene in van anymore. He lives in a bubble, thinking because someone hasn't happened to him, it must not happen to anyone. Same type of person who thinks its reasonable for the government to read emails "because they have nothing to hide". We are supposed to be able to live in spirit of this free and democratic nation, free to act within our rights as we wish as long as we don't violate anyone else's rights and follow laws. Saying that there are only a few BS vi's in this thread is evidence that this isn't an actual problem is not actually evidence. Most car GVA enthusiasts aren't on RS, obviously. If he had car friends, he would know they don't want to come van anymore in fear of the police.
What smoking gun is he looking for? There won't ever be one, because legally, basically every single VI is justified. It doesn't mean police actions are justified or beneficial, just because its legal. Any awareness work with the media will create no change. Change in the BC/Canadian system is a long and difficult process, unless you personally know horgan or stewart.
Bic, LOVE the idea of the open doc! Hopefully, this can act as some type of PSA in regards to whats legal, what isn't and avoid a view VI's here and there.
I'm curious, is there any reason why you don't cite the MVA regulations? Do you know that the MVA, and MVAR are two different acts that are different, but both apply? Its a lot of work to understand the legality of a modified car, so its not surprising that police also get it wrong. There is a actually quite a few things in your post I think are incorrect, I will try to get into the document later with sources to prove otherwise. When you say CVSE, I assume your citing the inspection manual? right off the bat the exhaust thing is wrong, CVSE inspection manual doesn't have a DB limit (thats in the MVAR). Its up to the inspector to deem it reasonable for the output of the engine.
The rules for exhaust I interpret very clearly(7.03). For some reason, lots of people think any modified exhaust portion is illegal(which is silly).
You can't have a widened exhaust outlet.
You can't have a cutout.
You need cat's if car came with them.
You can't attach a device that will increase sound(like a whistle), or make flames appears.
The MVAR states that when tested at inspection station the exhaust shall not exceed 83db for light duty, 88 for gas heavy duty, 91 for motorcycles, and 93 for diesel heavy duty.
"The opinion of an inspector as to whether the engine and exhaust noise is greater than
that made by other vehicles in good condition of comparable size, horsepower, piston
displacement or compression ratio shall determine whether exhaust gases are expelled
with excessive noise."
So, if your car has increased horsepower from OEM, its reasonable that it will be louder.
For anyone curious on the laws, here is a good place to start reading, this is just BC though. Federal standards apply as well.
seems to have died down recently eh. .. thank god. . .
No it's not. Friend got VI (2) on his R32 skyline by vpd just a few days ago.
Apparently the cop walked around the car and kicked the front bumper several times saying the car's too low. Yes, he kicked the bumper..
R32 friend is not on RS by the way.
Who said anything about jacked up 350’s or stanced Nissan’s? Have any of those people complained? No. Most of the guys getting donged are lowered mildly with mild exhaust or custom rims. A fellow IS300 driver came here who had a HKS and lowering springs. BRZ with legal exhaust. Another FRS just lowered. westophers BMW, the Fiat, heck I’ll even give the Jeeps a pass with their off-road gear they’re not hurting anyone. Lowered Nissan 350z.
Not one person on here cried for any stanced Nissan or whatever the heck you’re talking about.
Re: your other stuff... why are you even here then? Personal torture? If you’re so disillusioned with the discussions here I’m surprised you’re here.
pretty sure meme405 (sorry can't recall his username) with the bagged infiniti wants traffic cop to fight gang violence several pages back
camo paint g37 with big wang and drives like an asshole was in this thread
mild and HKS belongs in the same sentence?
your only example provided where an inspection was passed without changing a thing was the FR-S with exhaust but bone stock everything else. everyone else had to revert to stock to my knowledge
you're the one who's livid but not providing any help/solution to the matter. is that not an accurate assessment?
is your ideal discussion one where there's zero disagreements...sorry if not everyone wants to sing kumbaya with you
^ you’re the one trashing RS but posting on it every day bud.
Wasn’t asking for any kumbaya, you sure read a lot of stuff that wasn’t even said.
Again, you ever sped 1km/h ever ever ever over the limit? Jaywalked? Police decide to suddenly zero tolerance speeding or jaywalking it’s the exact same deal. You should be supporting anyone fighting against suddenly harsh clampdowns of existing rules that didn’t get harshly clamped down on before cuz something you do regularly that contravenes some law could be next. Think of the big picture for a change.
But I’m supposedly the one with the narrow mind... lol
Regardless of whether it’s a solution or not, what’s worse? Posting skepticism in this thread, naysaying and shooting people down or supporting the community (which doesn’t imply blindly supporting people who are extreme and obviously in the wrong). You’re currently the guy at the party nobody wants to talk to.
And I don't believe most ppl in here are complaining about their VIs if they are justified. Everyone is just complaining the fact that the VPD is unclear of the actual MVA / CVSE rules/regulations and that VIs are not disputable.
And I don't believe most ppl in here are complaining about their VIs if they are justified. Everyone is just complaining the fact that the VPD is unclear of the actual MVA / CVSE rules/regulations and that VIs are not disputable.
Yup! The rules are unclear for everyone! This is the problem. Most things are legal to modify on a car, only a few things are written into law as illegal.
Nobody even knows there IS a dispute process for VI's that directly oversee notice and orders. Check it out CVSE - National Safety Code
How to dispute? Speak to the officer's supervisor, if you still want to dispute after the supervisor reviews, speak to the local manager(who? what position in the department is unclear). after that, you still want to dispute the order you can have a CVSE manager reconsider your case. Imagine all this happening while your sitting on the side of the road after getting pulled over.
The thing we should be complaining about is the system is stacked against fairness. A notice and order literally says to speak to the officers supervisor if you dispute the action. If Cain is the sergeant, how well do you think that is going to go? If you don't like his action, is it even possible to have his manager show up on scene? Will a CVSE manager be available to come by and look at your car? There is no choice but to accept enforcement action, pay the tow home, overpay at the dealership to get a passed report.
Willing to sell a family member for a few minutes on RS
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North vancouver
Posts: 12,628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero
your only example provided where an inspection was passed without changing a thing was the FR-S with exhaust but bone stock everything else. everyone else had to revert to stock to my knowledge
I have said 68 times or so about what I needed to do but I'll do it again for the sake of this thread.
The CVSE and MVA are not the same.
My car complied with the MVA
I knew it would not comply with the CVSE, (after the VI was issued,) which is not readily available info to the public. I only found out after they used the CVSE to say I didn't comply to the MVA, and was able to borrow the CVSE inspection book from a licensed inspection facility who the officer determined was incapable of inspecting my car even though they are legally registered and qualified.
Thats why I raised my car approx. 20mm to pass the inspection. The fact remains my car was MVA compliant and they made up a law on the spot based on a different document that ISN'T LEGISLATION to issue me a ticket, take my plates and tow my car.
No I didn't revert to stock.
No my car has not been modified since passing the box 1 VI
No my car was not in violation of the MVA before the inspection
I'll be sure to purchase a dash cam because I should be expecting to have unprovoked altercations with the police all of a sudden after 16 years of driving with no issues. Silly me.
__________________
98 technoviolet M3/2/5
Quote:
Originally Posted by boostfever
Westopher is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsy82
seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked
Quote:
Originally Posted by punkwax
Well.. I’d hate to be the first to say it, but Westopher is correct.
I have said 68 times or so about what I needed to do but I'll do it again for the sake of this thread.
The CVSE and MVA are not the same.
My car complied with the MVA
I knew it would not comply with the CVSE, (after the VI was issued,) which is not readily available info to the public. I only found out after they used the CVSE to say I didn't comply to the MVA, and was able to borrow the CVSE inspection book from a licensed inspection facility who the officer determined was incapable of inspecting my car even though they are legally registered and qualified.
Thats why I raised my car approx. 20mm to pass the inspection. The fact remains my car was MVA compliant and they made up a law on the spot based on a different document that ISN'T LEGISLATION to issue me a ticket, take my plates and tow my car.
No I didn't revert to stock.
No my car has not been modified since passing the box 1 VI
No my car was not in violation of the MVA before the inspection
I'll be sure to purchase a dash cam because I should be expecting to have unprovoked altercations with the police all of a sudden after 16 years of driving with no issues. Silly me.
Horse shit! Sucks you went through that. Why the fuck they felt it necessary to take your plates is mind boggling, do you have a history of disobeying legal orders? I tried to look through your recent posts to find out what happened, can you inform me what the officer used as reason for this?
Its BS that the inspection manual isn't public. What document that isn't legislation are you referring?
When you say it wasn't CVSE compliant, how so, just because you didn't have 25mm clearance?
Willing to sell a family member for a few minutes on RS
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North vancouver
Posts: 12,628
Thanked 32,346 Times in 7,533 Posts
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Yes its because of the 25mm clearance.
When I set my suspension height I even consulted the MVA to make sure I was in compliance. The only information I could find was that no part of the cars body could be below the lip of the rim, and the headlights needed to be 56cms.
The inspection manual is the document that isn't actually legislation. Where the MVA is. The CVSE isn't law, its an inspection guide that is more in depth than the MVA. And yes, I didn't have 25mm clearance, though, I did explain earlier, I did have much more than 25mm, of suspension travel based on the angle of compression, shape of the tire, fender, etc.
To be fair, after a certain amount of abuse I was a fucking asshole and didn't help the situation.
As for history with the police.
0 arrests
0 points on my license
0 court appearances
2 tickets in 2011 for expired license and use of an electronic device
Reason for seizure of plates. My car was a "danger to public safety, and not in compliance with the MVA"
__________________
98 technoviolet M3/2/5
Quote:
Originally Posted by boostfever
Westopher is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsy82
seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked
Quote:
Originally Posted by punkwax
Well.. I’d hate to be the first to say it, but Westopher is correct.
Gotcha, I figured as much. Thanks for the explanation. Yea, no justification for taking your plates, a tow home and unable to drive the car is enough punishment. The plate revoking is supposed to be when they believe you will disobey the order. Your matter in 2011 should serve no bearing in this. I do believe CVSE inspectors have a legal duty to follow the inspection manual, it and the applicable laws determine pass or reject. CVSE manual is super easy to pass if its only enforced to the level outline. We also have to follow all the laws so more then the CVSE manual applies in an inspection. dealerships go way way beyond what's reasonable with this.
Are you aware there is the MVA, and MVAR? They are different, but both apply in BC.
Canada Traffic act also applies. this should clarify up some questions (and proving most mods are legal) http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/...bc/26_58_multi
Let me guess, this is a made up story unless there's video proof?
There were two officers pulled the buddy over; one was quite respectful, the other officer who was also older was the one kicking the bumper.
Right, just making up stories here, carry on..
I don’t doubt your story, I’ve personally had a police officer in Richmond who pulled me for speeding (didn’t get ticketed though) kick my exhaust pipe on my MR2 (GReddy PE) asking me if it was aftermarket. He didn’t do anything about it in the end, but he clearly kicked my exhaust pipe several times hard enough for dirt to shake off it and then stuck his foot into the tailpipe to emphasize his point.
This was before dashcams even existed though, so I guess it didn’t happen
And I don't believe most ppl in here are complaining about their VIs if they are justified. Everyone is just complaining the fact that the VPD is unclear of the actual MVA / CVSE rules/regulations and that VIs are not disputable.
It seems to be mostly noobs who just joined complaining about valid VIs, and long term members annoyed with the flaws in the system. Which won't get corrected trying to go after the VPD, you'll need to be pushing for provincial changes to achieve that.
__________________ 1991 Toyota Celica GTFour RC // 2007 Toyota Rav4 V6 // 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee
1992 Toyota Celica GT-S ["sold"] \\ 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD [sold] \\ 2000 Jeep Cherokee [sold] \\ 1997 Honda Prelude [sold] \\ 1992 Jeep YJ [sold/crashed] \\ 1987 Mazda RX-7 [sold] \\ 1987 Toyota Celica GT-S [crushed]
Quote:
Originally Posted by maksimizer
half those dudes are hotter than ,my GF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevYouUp
reading this thread is like waiting for goku to charge up a spirit bomb in dragon ball z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_KarMa
OH thank god. I thought u had sex with my wife. :cry:
^ you’re the one trashing RS but posting on it every day bud.
Wasn’t asking for any kumbaya, you sure read a lot of stuff that wasn’t even said.
Again, you ever sped 1km/h ever ever ever over the limit? Jaywalked? Police decide to suddenly zero tolerance speeding or jaywalking it’s the exact same deal. You should be supporting anyone fighting against suddenly harsh clampdowns of existing rules that didn’t get harshly clamped down on before cuz something you do regularly that contravenes some law could be next. Think of the big picture for a change.
But I’m supposedly the one with the narrow mind... lol
Regardless of whether it’s a solution or not, what’s worse? Posting skepticism in this thread, naysaying and shooting people down or supporting the community (which doesn’t imply blindly supporting people who are extreme and obviously in the wrong). You’re currently the guy at the party nobody wants to talk to.
if over margin of error,+/- 5kph of speed limit, i'll bite my tongue and pay
if i somehow missed that police was observing me jaywalk, i'll bite my tongue and be responsible for my action
but that makes me a cuck, right?
some checks and balance to the discussion is not healthy? we likely have one shot to come to the public with this, if the argument is quite flawed then it won't go well
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