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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
As a reporter once said, no different than "hey you want to have fuck?" versus "hey you want to netflix and chill?"
which reporter said that?
And we are talking about legal representation, not opinion. Who's to say she can't go back a few months later to go back to the 2nd reading and telling press "I didn't say withdraw, I only said it was dead".
The refusal to use the offical, legal term ("withdraw") is not at all surprising, given Lam's past track record. When she was 2nd in command, she has steadfastly refused to use a correct term during the political reform proposal -- the correct term there should have been "5 part procedure" / 五部曲, but she had used "5 step procedure" / 五步曲. Even when she had been called out by multiple legislators on the literary error, she had still refused to budge. You may think it is a small and insignificant thing, but it is like calling a donkey a horse, so it is wrong. Worse yet, it's a sign of her arrogance and refusal to admit to her own mistakes.
Undoubtedly, the refusal to use "withdraw" could have legal ramifications. At the same time as others have pointed out, the bill could still get re-tabled even if Lam has used "withdraw". There have been incidents of similar nature happening, from the much dreaded Article 23 national security bill, to the patriotic national education policies. The original bill did not pass, but bits and pieces of them, or watered down / not-so-watered down versions of them still make it through to the actual implementaiton level. I believe the flag act was originally meant to be part of Article 23, as was the national anthem act (which actually didn't pass due to a simple procedural error). Patriotic national education is rife in nearly every elementary and highschool subject now. (black hair, black eyes, and yellow skin means you are Chinese blah blah blah).
With the extradiction act pronounced dead, the next items of focus that I see as very important are:
1) the pressing of charges against "rioters" throughout the various June / July events
2) an independent review of police conduct during the June / July events
The HKSAR gov is unlikely to budge on either account, but I think it is extremely important. Personally, I would not accept any compromise on these 2 issues at all, in the sense that I think the charges need to be dropped, that an independent police conduct review take place, and that police brutality charges be laid. But if I were someone in the HKSAR gov, I would propose the dropping of charges for both the "rioters" as well as police officers, while agreeing to a no-fault "independent" review on police conduct. I suspect an arrangement like this will likely be enough to pacify a majority of the protesters, and the current wave of recurring mass protest will then lose steam.
With the extradiction act pronounced dead, the next items of focus that I see as very important are:
1) the pressing of charges against "rioters" throughout the various June / July events
2) an independent review of police conduct during the June / July events
The HKSAR gov is unlikely to budge on either account, but I think it is extremely important. Personally, I would not accept any compromise on these 2 issues at all, in the sense that I think the charges need to be dropped, that an independent police conduct review take place, and that police brutality charges be laid. But if I were someone in the HKSAR gov, I would propose the dropping of charges for both the "rioters" as well as police officers, while agreeing to a no-fault "independent" review on police conduct. I suspect an arrangement like this will likely be enough to pacify a majority of the protesters, and the current wave of recurring mass protest will then lose steam.
I think point 1 will be very difficult to impose because it affects the rule of law and could actually bite the pro-dem back in the future.
the 2nd one has been gaining traction, especially after yesterday's comment form ex-chief of justice.
I think point 1 will be very difficult to impose because it affects the rule of law and could actually bite the pro-dem back in the future.
Point #1 can be done by either having the Minister of Justice to drop charges against the "rioters", or pardons can be issued by the HKSAR CEO. There has been precedences of both in the past, esp mass pardons way back when the HKPD was corrupt AF. The mass pardon was given by the then colonial British HK gov, and I believe is encompasses all police officers where the bribery amounted to less than a certain figure.
Adopting this route would really make amends with the general public, and diffuse a lot of the pent up frustration and dissatisfaction among them. And the mass pardon includes dropping charges for the police force as well, that should be sufficient to keep everybody happy.
Of course, it is highly questionable whether Lam and Beijing have the political wisdom to see and accept this. Esp with Bejing, their mindset and way of thinking is totally screwed up.
I think point 1 can apply to the ones charged on 6/12 only, as those were arrested under the pretense of "riotous acts" which the police backed out on the next day.
As for point 2, I can't even imagine why a properly functioning country wouldn't want their police to be held accountable for their actions. HK went from having one of the worst, most corrupt police forces, to one of the best, and now they are turning into a bunch of thugs again. They REALLY need to do a proper investigation into it, not just to appease the rioters, but to just be Hong Kong.
As for political wisdom, Beijing doesn't have a clue how to deal with people that have free thought and aren't brainwashed. They've shown this with every attempt at law making and propaganda. You can do propaganda in democratic countries. US, Canada, EU countries do it all the time. You just can't do it the way China does it. It has the opposite effect.
And IMO (I could be wrong) Lam is just a puppet. She's literally irrelevant to the whole thing. She could be anyone. Any pro-Beijing person saying she fucked up, or she did things wrong, is just trying to separate her from the rest of the CCP.
i've saidit before Lam is a puppet... China tried to kick out the 1st chief forcing him down... thinking it was his issue so he "retired due to health reasons".... complete BS and China realized it doesn't work.
I can't see how they can drop charges or pardons. Doens't make sense at all. Has it ever happened in HK or parts of the world? Logical question I'm asking as I dont' know the answer. What does that really accomplish? Why just 6/12 and not 6/13 and not the days in july etc..
As for political wisdom, Beijing doesn't have a clue how to deal with people that have free thought and aren't brainwashed. They've shown this with every attempt at law making and propaganda. You can do propaganda in democratic countries. US, Canada, EU countries do it all the time. You just can't do it the way China does it. It has the opposite effect.
China has a different political system though. They rely a lot on long-term planning. This is unlike the West's political environment of revolving door every 4 years with parties throwing rocks at each other and trying to undo their predecessors' plans. They need everybody to be on the same page for a long period of time so they can't have people throwing rocks at the window like the West.
Not to say it's good or bad. Their system isn't democratic and that's the system they chose to go with. It worked well for them on aspects like the economy but obviously people's freedom is limited/censored.
it's probably a clusterfu*k internally between China/HK to find the next course of action. Anything they are trying to do or say just creates more tension between the HKers and the top ranks.
I can't see how they can drop charges or pardons. Doens't make sense at all. Has it ever happened in HK or parts of the world? Logical question I'm asking as I dont' know the answer. What does that really accomplish? Why just 6/12 and not 6/13 and not the days in july etc..
In the 60's and early 70's,the HKPD was corrupted AF. Then HK Governor Murray MacLehose wanted to tackle the problem, and created ICAC, the Independent Commission Against Corruption. This new bureau directly reports to the Governor, and their tactics have proven to be effective in cracking down corruption activities. Naturally, this has also created a lot of friction between the HKPD and the ICAC. In the late 70's (Oct 1977, according to Wikipedia), thousands of HKPD officers and their family members went to demonstrate at the HKPD HQ to show their frustrations, and under 100 of them went to storm the ICAC office, including injuring a number of ICAC staff.
To pacify the police frustration, Governor MacLehose issued a one time mass pardon that excused a vast majority of police officers from corruption charges. The political decision was obviously welcomed by the PD, but severely demoralized the ICAC as well as causing the then ICAC commissioner to resign.
Looking at that span of history, you can see many parallels with the widespread discontent then and now. So from a political wisdom point of view, I think it is totally something worthwhile for the HKSAR gov to pursue. And with pardoning both the "rioters" as well as the police officer, it kind of strikes a middle ground that stands to pacify both sides, instead of completely siding only with one side or the other.
Again, I stress that this is what I think a smart government would do to pacify the crowds and tame down the situation. I obviously stand on the protester's side, and think the police officers committing brutiality crimes and breaking codes of conduct should face the appropriate consequences. But the current HKSAR gov would obviously never agree to that.
^ really good point, thank you for this. I can't see it happening, but it's a refreshing perspective.
This is MOFO Hilarious. (in cantonese, sorry no captions)
何君堯 (HK lawyer and politician; former President of the Law Society of HK).
Background: He's giving a speech responding to the inquiry on the use of water cannons (from the police stand point).
Questions & answer; note I'm quoting him ... legit answers by him ahhahah
1) what were the protocols before firing?
His Answer: "Make sure the water cannons are filled with water, or else how will we use the cannon?" AHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
2) Where there protocols during the use?
Answer: "To aim properly. If Mr. Chan was there, we will ask the aim better on him. These are the standard protocols provided by Security Bureau. What do you expect? To wash the streets? Of course we aim at protesters?"
3) Should there be any follow up AFTER the water cannon being used?
answer: "Oh, should we have offered shampoo and soap, since you're already wet, do you want a shower"
3) Are the cannons better than the ones than the ones from Korea?
Answer: Of course they are better. We bought these with money, of course we buy the best water cannons. Did you expect us to buy super soakers? Of course they are legit, or else how are we going to "serve" you.
4) what are the water force and effects of the water cannons used on humans?
Answer: "The force for sure is powerful as heck. For sure it's stronger than the jacuzzi at your home. Of course there are effects, the effects is to make you wet. If it's the winter, you'll get cold. In summer, you'll feel refreshed."
Imagine being the kid standing up to this piece of shit! I hope it was worth it in the end - prove the resolve of Hong Kong youth, and get this fucker charged for aggravated assault.
This was hard to watch, I felt my heart pumping as I wished I was there to knock that fat fuck out cold. However what the kids did was smart. They know that if they'd retaliated, the police would have arrested anyone who touched that guy. Now they have no choice but to go after that piece of shit. At the same time, it shows the pro-HK people as being calm, strong, a bit reckless, while it shows the pro-government people as idiotic thugs and violent pieces of shit.
I respect the young dude in the blue t-shirt for not returning the favour. Reportedly, he is a black belt in TKD as well as a Muay Thai practitioner of several years. Still, I disagree with the way he just took in all the sucker punches. After the first punch or two, when it became obvious that the fat POS wasn't gonna stop, he should have defended himself by blocking or something. IMO, it would have become a matter of personal safety at that point.
The fat fxxk has already been arrested for this, and he was reportedly also an assailant in attacking a 65 yr old at the same Lenon wall.
Regrettably, if past history and rulings were any precedence, the fat fxxk is only going to get a slap on the wrist. The HKPD as well as the local district courts are known to be lenient on pro-police and pro-establishment supporters, while being totally biased against pan-democrat supporters. The lightest possible charges will get laid on this fat fxxk, and the district court judge will also hand out the lightest possible sentencing. In the past, physical assaults on pro-democratic supporters involving only a few punches have results in a mere HKD$500 (ie. <Cdn$100) fine. A pro-establishment 71 yr old man was only given 1 week jail time for assaulting a 19 yr old kid like this:
but was later released on appeal.
It is infuriating to see how the system is stacked against anyone that do not support the HKSAR gov.
Normally I agree with you, in a normal street fight, he obviously should have defended himself at least. However this is political, and the statement made by eating punches thrown by idiotic pro-government supporters, being literally KO'd and getting back up again to face them again... That's a powerful statement.
On the outside, we can criticize it and say he's taking unnecessary brain trauma, but think of how much power the kid is actually showing by taking the stereotype of an ignorant pro-beijing moron, and just eating and eating all the shit thrown his way.
Maybe it would be even better if he'd just cracked the guy, I dunno...
I certainly respect his decision to eat the punches even if I don't agree with it. And given his background, he probably has a rough idea of how much punishment he can take.
For myself, and I can only speak for myself here -- I would still stress personal safety above making a powerful political statement. At the same time, I know I am a useless middle aged dude while the young guys that have been driving this entire movement continue to amaze the world with their resolve and tenacity.
May God bless these kids. And may God bless Hong Kong...
What's the background story of fatty and the guys?
There are "lennon walls" throughout the city, where people put up notes of encouragement and support. Part of the protest.
Fat guy represents the blindly ignorant anti-protester people, who, for the first time in their lives, care about litter and garbage, and call this littering. So fat ignorant morons like this guy are "standing up" to the litterers. Obviously it's politics, not littering, but they are ignorant so what do you expect?
I think if anyone asked me if I wanted to have fuck, I'd respond like this.
Happened to me once in an reserve in northern Manitoba. “Hey, want to fuck?” Haha. Well that was forward. My face didn’t look anywhere close to that. Hahah
Happened to me once in an reserve in northern Manitoba. “Hey, want to fuck?” Haha. Well that was forward. My face didn’t look anywhere close to that. Hahah
Someone asked me that in the locker room at the gym, and that GIF is 100% exactly the face I made
That blue shirt guy deserved those punches. I don't care whose side they're on, but its not a 'peaceful' protest if you and 7 of your friends surround someone and physically block them from leaving. /flamesuiton
__________________
I searched for truth, and all I found was You
That blue shirt guy deserved those punches. I don't care whose side they're on, but its not a 'peaceful' protest if you and 7 of your friends surround someone and physically block them from leaving. /flamesuiton
uh. they were blocking him because
1. he wanted to stay around to harass the teens and a 65-year-old for putting up the memos
2. They only surrounded him after he physically assaulted the teenager and the 65-year-old.
you're a dick to think someone "deserves" to be punched for being blocked.
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