I don't think it's so much pro-HK vs pro-government, it's more pro-protest vs anti-protest. Obviously those who participate are pro-HK, but those who choose not to participate or are against it, doesn't mean they are pro-government.

There's absolutely no place for the fat guy to hit the blue shirt guy. But his reasoning wasn't because he was pro-China or anything, or at least I didn't feel so from his words. He asked, why are you creating a revolution, why are you creating a mess, do you work, have a home to go back to cook, to take care of family etc.

Call me short sighted, but I don't think it's wrong to not want a protest. I don't love CCP or think they are great leaders. But I want peace. I just want to keep my head down, mind my own business, make enough money to barely make ends meet and cover my mortgage, and take care of my family, in one of the stressful city that one could ever live in the world.

One could argue you can't expect a better tomorrow without taking a risk and making a change, but what if it turns out to be worse, what if life gets even worse for people in HK? What is the ultimate goal that people in HK want to achieve? Declare indepedence? Overturn the China government?

I do take back my words, it's amazing how the protest made China stop the bill.

edit: To be clear again, I'm not defending the fat guy's action. But I certainly don't see the fat guy as a China agent trying to promote how great CCP is. If anything, I pressure and stress and irritation, just from living in HK.

And that passiveness is how you end up living in a place with no human rights, putting people in internment camps in 2019, and arresting people for disagreeing with you.

I am so fucking glad HK youth are not like that.

Of course you can be passive, living in a place of privilege like Canada (I assume so anyway, at least you can probably go there if you have to). Hell I can afford to be passive as well, because I can just up and go any time I want. But these kids are up against the wall, their future being taken away from them piece by piece. If that fat shitter doesn't want to protest, fine - I don't participate myself - but to be AGAINST protesting, when his future and his family's future are going to be raped just as hard - fuck him.

If you're anti-protest, you're pro-China and anti-liberty, whether you want to admit to it or not. To not fight is to give up your life and your future family's life.

As for ultimate goal, this really could be the start of a revolution throughout all of China. They really are getting worse by the year, more totalitarian, more tyrannical. People who can "put their heads down" and ignore real problems "I'm not a terrorist so I don't have to worry" are only going to wake up one day, unable to send their kids to a certain school because they are friends with someone who posted a Winnie The Pooh meme on Wechat.

China's middle class has been riding high on a huge bubble for the last decade or so, so they really can "put their heads down" and enjoy the wealth. But what happens when that bubble bursts? What are they left with?

The protest last Sunday was a great idea, try to get as much of this information to the youth of China. Their parents and lazy friends may want to "put their heads down", but they will inevitably notice their rights being eroded away more and more. We already saw a large scale protest last month in China, as the government decided to place garbage incinerators directly in a residential area. Maybe the fact that HK protesters literally blocked a law from happening will be some sort of encouragement. At least a spark maybe. Think long term, China sure is.

Skinny you should go protest too. As one of the few white guys there I'm sure you would garner a lot of support from the international press

Or he'll become a bargaining chip for Huawei lady. "Hey Canada, we got one of yours over here"

Ah that's true... Would be pretty bad ass if he was one of the guys who broke into Lego and drapped that British flag. Can you imagine the shit that would stir?!?! Holy fuck

I have a hard time comprehending / agreeing with this.

My buddy had a huge heated argument with me over this.

During the 2014 umbrella revolution, my friends who ran 2 restaurant businesses in central had to close its doors. The protest heavily affected his traffic flow and he couldn't make ends meet as it lasted for 2+ months; losing 2.5 million dollars all together.
We were a bit speechless & and had nothing to say.

"I am 100% anti-protest, I had to shut my business down, fire all my staff (17 of them in their 50-60s) cause there was no business. You can fight all you want, just not in my backyard."

A younger millennials: "If you back the movement, this is part of the sacrifice. There will always be casualties, but your sacrifice is for a cause, shouldn't you be proud?"

He said: "DIU LAY LO MO. You go home after a protest cause you have a roof over your head; provided by your mom and dad." "I go home and tell my wife and kids either we declare bankruptcy or we sell our house to float a sinking business."

He continued "Why don't you go comfort your parents when the just got fired "it's ok mom, you lost your job but you're fighting for the cause". Fighting for a cause will not pay for your rent, lay lo mei"

It kept going in circles; one says "you're fighting for a cause... and sometimes there are damages" "Say all you want until you go don't have a home to go to"

It's unfortunate that your friend had to shutter his business and lost all that money. I certainly sympathize with that. At the same time, I personally kind of view that as the part of the business risks. It happened to be the Umbrella Revolution that affected his traffic flow, but it could just as easily have been a watermain bursting, government rezoning, or heck, problematic high speed rail / MTR construction that led to unforseen sinking of the foundation and ground levels.

I find it regrettable that your friend could not separate the business closure due to unforeseen business risks from the fight for freedom and autonomy.

do the young mainland kids even care about the western definition of liberty?

sure many will come and stay in Canada because of clean air/health care/education/work/green space

but how many in China on the whole are actually fed up with being limited to platforms like wechat? do they even give a shit about facebook/google? i know i likely wouldn't...there's not even a built-in Uber (anymore), maybe they dont even care that much about having a 'voice'

the wuhan protest against a facility that will directly impact their health, ok makes sense

but how many who grew up in China (and are not completely oblivious to the downfalls of regime/walled network) are actually worried about facial recognition and the social ranking system to the point they'll go on a hunger strike/stand up to the army?

So blame the victims then? It really sucks for your friend, but any number of things could have happened that caused his business to fail temporarily. Road closure due to a new mall going in? Building demolished to build a new train station? Flooding? People fighting for their lives? Things happen. I'm not unsympathetic, but come on...

Yes he had a good thing going, making $1.25 million a month by "keeping his head down" and not worrying about anything other than that. But there are other people who aren't making millions every month, or maybe they do but are more worried about liberty, they are going to fight for that... Even if it's inconvenient to lose some money, I think it's WAY more inconvenient to get arrested and be never heard from again, in prison for decades until you starve to death at 45.

Who knows how many? Because if they do openly, they get disappeared. They're out there though. Many who study overseas have an open mind at a young age, and see how things are around the world. They can compare, and decide what they think is better. Others stay brainwashed, others "put their heads down" and be part of the system, because making money is more important than anything else in the world.

I'd considered it but I don't believe I have the "right" to do so, since I am not a permanent resident. I will be a permanent resident next September, and in that case I may be more active politically. That is, if I even decide to stay that long... Who knows? If things go far enough down the shitter, I might just leave... Honestly every time I travel to a different country, I want to live there for a few years.

BTW there are lots of ethnic minority protesters out there taking part.

No skytrain down Broadway because the business’ will be affected during construction.

Yeah it really sucks for those people. They are the ones that sacrifice, but come on. That is the risk of business for the greater good of the city.. Two months of bad business and they have to close their doors? Try a few years! Sounds to me like the doors were already close to being shut.

A little thoughtful reading for the debate. Personally, I really wouldn't mind a bit more of government control over FB, IG, Snapchat, Google, etc.

China Goes '1984' While America Goes 'Brave New World'--But What's Next?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robasgh.../#5fcec4531620

Sneak peek/preview:
A New York Times report details how Chinese authorities are using cutting-edge technology to increasingly keep tabs on their citizens, in order to nab drug smugglers and murder suspects and even to publicly shame inconsiderate jay-walkers.

"With millions of cameras and billions of lines of code, China is building a high-tech authoritarian future," the Times' technology correspondent Paul Mozur wrote.

Just a year after 1984, the year for which Orwell's most famous book was named, the late social critic Neil Postman published Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business. He talked of a certain dumbing down of American thought and action due to the effects of television and mass advertising; and all the phenomena he then observed have since been accelerated by the Internet and social media.

Postman's key point was that Big Brother didn't need to bother watching John Doe or controlling him, because John Doe probably was already willing to be controlled by forces that rendered him harmless to Big Brother.

As Postman memorably put it:

Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. ... In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.

This above paragraph, in a nutshell, is China vs. Western free democratic world. Some of you are buying way too much into the democracy free world cool aid ... well, that's because you keep on drinking it incessantly.

Entirely possible that they have high fixed costs and small margins that's heavily dependent on high volume. But we don't really know the full story and would be unwise to blame them for a shitty business that can't survive 2 months with close to 0 revenues.

*Talking about any businesses that are severely affected by these protests

lol @ equating wasting time on facebook with being sent to internment camps for being muslim, or being arrested for having the wrong opinion, or being spied on 24/7 and your life is recorded with a score which controls what you can do and where you can go.

I know people like to just be controversial in forums, but come on. Postman was complaining about trivial shit. It was a fluff piece that kind of fits a narrative that people waste time on social media today. And yes, there's a lot of shit information out there. But there's a lot of really important useful information, and means of communication and collaboration.

Enjoy the privilege you have to share your opinion without having to consider if it will get you in trouble, or to read an article on forbes.com, or to even know who George Orwell is. Because in another part of the world, you're not allowed to do any of those things. FailFish

Honestly, if he came out to be openly anti-protest, he would've gone bankrupt anyways. It'd be pissing in the face of his main customer base.

https://www.facebook.com/%E9%A4%8A%E...epa=SEARCH_BOX

This company's owner posted some stupid shit dissing his customers and Hong Kongers fucked him up good.

If you look at Hong Kong's functional constituencies, you'd notice that a lot of high paying, highly educated sectors are pro-democracy. If you push them to leave (and they all have the means to leave), you'll be left without all the doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc. Good luck keeping society running without them.

I think some will see that as a best case scenario. There are plenty of people to take their place, and they won't have to worry about people who care about liberty anymore.

that's a lot of what if's/prediction compared to the businesses that's already lost a fair bit of money

i was pissed at the bill that created 2nd-class citizens where Ottawa gained power to remove naturalized citizenship status even if you're accused/tried as a criminal/terrorist abroad, or the new bill where police can charge you for DUI within 2 hours of driving and having alcohol...but those are hypothetical situations and rarely used/abused (so far)

has the CCP done some & continue to do crazy atrocious shit, of course and they're one of the most notorious, but doesn't mean they'll start a genocide/concentration camps for every HK dissident if the extradition law did go through, even if it's ripe for abuse

it seems this is a bigger deal than face value because it's symbolic due to the eroding basic law...to the point just saying it's 'dead' is not good enough, and that it must be 101% confirmed using legal speak..last i checked Lam does not have a law background

when's the last time Trump used legal speak? half of the crap spewed is made up on a whim, the other half is flip-flopped and conflicting

neither does Trudeau, just a lot of um's but's and not actually answering the questions (no law background)

Protesters in HK have the advantage that they are mostly ethnic Chinese. If they weren't, I can 100% guarantee that this place would be under military lockdown at this very moment, and everyone who survived the first strike would be rounded up and sent to these concentration camps.

That's because they are literally doing this to the Uighur people right now.

There's no guarantee that they wouldn't start doing this to ethnic Chinese HK people eventually either. They've kidnapped and "disappeared" enough HK people already to prove that they will do it to anyone they don't agree with. Hell they've disappeared Canadians just to spite Canada for following rule of democratic law and giving someone a fair trial according to international agreements.

This is not hyperbole or a fantasy... They really are evil. That's why it bothers me when people "put their heads down" and go "oh well, my family makes lots of money so it doesn't matter" or "it used to be worse"

HKPD was saying that the watch in the LegCo video was photoshopped. But you know who are the masters at PhotoShop?


PRC really be deleting people out here.

30K protest in Sheng Shui today. This one raising awareness of the hundreds of thousands who crowd the neighbourhood (which borders Shenzen China) coming in to buy "parallel goods" (this is a polite way to say that they are illegally smuggling products from HK into China)


Protests like this are nothing new, and this one ended before cops showed up. But they seemingly had intentions, and the recent protests and scrutiny have put some of them in a bad mood I think.


It's mostly local residents and press, cops are going after anyone who is in the area.



Kids were playing basketball nearby, cops broke it up:


Using pepper spray


Look at this maniac, swinging his baton blindly at anyone who is around


Member of the press gets stretchered


More graphics photos here.. One guy got absolutely smashed, the other I'm not sure but he looks severely injured, maybe out cold.

HK police have actually lost their fucking minds.

HKPD might have lost their minds but i shudder to think of the alternatives where the people's army come rolling in once HKPD conceded they lost control of the situation.

I take my words back. After seeing the video below, I realize I grossly underestimated the kind of stuff China has been doing outside of HK.