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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Tonight HK's civil servants are walking a rally right now. The government caught wind of this and last night issued a sternly-worded statement to all civil workers that they should "be loyal" to the chief executive... My guess is, that letter just increased the number of people by at least 50%. They have no fucking clue how to get people on their side. These aren't fucking commies
I really don't understand WTF the gov and police idiots are thinking. The net effect of everything they do are like acts of intentional provocation to get more people more upset about the situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hehe
For PLA to enter HK would be the most stupid decision the CCP can make with HK situation.
It simply showed the rest of the world that China has not changed ONE BIT from 1989.
As the saying goes, there is logic, and then there is Communist Chinese logic.
IMO, if/when PLA were deployed to clear out any of the protests, they'd have to do it with minimal bloodshed for a variety of political and economic reasons. This likely means they would be explictly disallowed to use live ammo. But then if the PLA is not allowed to use live ammo, then there is no logical reason for them to get involved at all, because the level of force that they use would be no different than what the HKPD is already doing currently. The HKPD has already deterioated into something so ruthless and lawless that they are beating people up without warning or provocation; they are entering into private (residential) properties without warrants to threaten non-violent people with arrest and false accusations of police assault; they have been caught on video firing multiple tear gas canisters to residents doing nothing other than jeering at them. As HK citizens and the world have seen, the HKPD has collectively lost their minds. Without using real, deadly ammo, they are already doing what the PLA would have been asked to do if the no live ammo requirement is there.
On the suggestion that "China has not changed ONE BIT from 1989", I'd tend to say that it is only the resulting behaviour that tends to be exactly the same, but the reasoning behind the scenes that lead to the same conclusion is quite different now than in 1989. Back in 1989, the massacre was more about the Party's infatuation of maintaining control above all else, and at all costs. As a matter of fact, it is also about the very existence and survivability of the Party. But I'd say that the considerations now are more about whether China can withstand an international boycott and their assessment of how far the international community will go. I will continue to assume / expect that Party leaders have smartened up and learned from the 1989 massacre that they cannot kill in an open society like Hong Kong. If China thinks its economy is strong enough to withstand an international boycott for the next 3 - 5 years, they would not be afraid to send in the troops.
Journalist also wrote an article about the PLA.
1) They wouldn't know shit and alley ways of the HK terrain. It would be the same effect.
2) 4000- 10000 PLA (IF that is even true), before they come, they would put out a curfew first.
3) HK stock exchange would tank about 10000 pts.
I don't think it would ever happen. Again. Time will tell.
I stopped caring about social media / news / reports, reason being... you only get to see 1/2 the clip or a particular beating. It's always someone being attacked... but it never shows the 30 seconds before hand when protesters were proactively taunting ... OR ... you always see police officer hitting someone which sometimes (may or may not be justified)
Journalist also wrote an article about the PLA.
1) They wouldn't know shit and alley ways of the HK terrain. It would be the same effect.
2) 4000- 10000 PLA (IF that is even true), before they come, they would put out a curfew first.
3) HK stock exchange would tank about 10000 pts.
I don't think it would ever happen. Again. Time will tell.
I stopped caring about social media / news / reports, reason being... you only get to see 1/2 the clip or a particular beating. It's always someone being attacked... but it never shows the 30 seconds before hand when protesters were proactively taunting ... OR ... you always see police officer hitting someone which sometimes (may or may not be justified)
It is never, ever justified for a police officer to assault someone. Only to subdue them if they are doing something illegal. Whacking at random people with batons, throwing them to the ground... That is pretty much pure thuggery. And often when you do see them arrest someone, they start kicking them in the head, bashing them with the edges of their shields.
Being yelled at is not a good enough reason to shoot tear gas at a group (hitting elderly and young children who happen to be in the area).
I've definitely seen some people doing illegal things, and those people should be identified and arrested. But that hardly happens... When the cops do react, it's more about retaliation and "keeping face" than maintaining peace and keeping order. They are yelling taunts back, picking fights, they are putting up the middle finger, shining lasers and lights at cameras, they are aiming deadly shotguns (with finger on the trigger), sometimes targeting press instead of suspected criminals. None of this is keeping the peace, it's having the opposite effect.
I really have a hard time coming up with why they are doing things this way. My first theory is that they are being commanded by someone high up that we don't even know about, and that person has only ever dealt with small uprisings in Mainland China that can be quashed easily this way. Another theory is that they are purposefully provoking protesters, in order to make them look as bad as possible.
Or maybe they are just incompetent, and are allowing emotions to take over level headed thinking that should be a main component of training. That definitely seems to be the case with some of these people. So many times, you see police restraining other police from breaking formation to chase after individuals. That cop with the shotgun, somehow he waded directly into an angry mob, who subsequently attacked him. Like why would you even think to do that, ESPECIALLY if you have a shotgun on you?
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Just look at South Korea, whenever there's a protest/riot of some sort (which seems to happen often) protesters, and police, are more violent than what's going on in HK
Or even protests that have happened historically in HK
So I don't think you should be too surprised at these incidents
Things can easily get far worse, and it wouldn't be out of the norm for the region
They're basically roaming around the cities like the own the place, threatening anyone they come across. Still waiting to hear about this Filipino guy who was arrested for walking down the street the other day...
Not only are they bashing and arresting people, they are talking shit at them while doing so. Taunting, calling them trash, and of course it's not uncommon for them to tell people to go do things to their female family members...
I have a feeling neither of them are Canadian citizens. People I know would have just slapped him silly because unlike immigrants we can't get deported, at worst would get community service.
__________________ Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.
As readers in this thread probably already know, I generally side with the protesters, and I continue to see myself that way. And I am still going to post the following video. The setting is in Wong Tai Sin near a police residence at 2:50-ish am:
Action starts at the 4:48 mark. I am unable to verify the truthfulness / accuracy of the following quote, but it is a translated version of what a poster said when he was watching the live feed from RTHK. (The link I posted is from NOW.)
Quote:
2:50am live feed from RTHK. A Wong Tai Sin off duty dog got into a verbal argument with a resident. It turned into a 1-on-1 fight, but he was getting beat up. As he retreats, he continues to receive the occasional punches, and even had someone pouring water on him. In the end, he escaped into the police dog riot shield defensive zone.
It started as a verbal argument, then turned into a 1-on-1 fight. They fought and fell to the ground. Tons of reporters surrounding them filiming.
After fight for a bit, the off duty dog had a friend intervene and dragged him out. Emotions ran high among the crowds. As they retrreat, they continue to receive punches here and there, and they are too afraid to retailiate. They kept walking until they got to the dog house. Right before they got behind the riot shield formations, a young guy managed to pour/dump a bottle of water on his head.
ON a more careful look, after (the off duty police) fell to the ground, a young guy splashed/wiped some green paint on his face. No wonder his whole head was green.
As the feed I watched is from NOW instead of RTHK, I cannot verify the truthfullness of the recount. But from watching the NOW feed alone, I clearly felt that the off duty police was terrified. Additionally, in a later scene when the riot police come out to form a perimeter with their riot gear, I also thought they were hesitant, confused, unsure of what to do, as well as afraid.
From the scenes when the residents were all group chanting curses at the police, you can tell how much and how intense the hatred towards the police is. And when I look at that, I have absolutely zero sympathy for the police. The reason public sentiments have deterioated into this is obvious and really requires no explanation.
The HKPD is a 30k+ strong force. Each and every day, I don't know how they can look at themselves and still think they are doing the right thing when large factions of the general population is telling them otherwise, and in the most demeaning manner as well.
Additionally, from what I can gather, I'd say a brief summary of the Wong Tai Sin clashing that took place yesterday is as follows:
Quote:
The police has incorrectly arrested some (2?) of the local Wong Tai Sin residents, who were reportedly merely in their casual clothing and slippers. That quickly pissed off the local residents and resulting in a lot of cursing towards the police. As the police retreats / moves out, they have inadvertently knocked down an elderly man. That infuriated even more of the local residents, prompting them to come out from their homes -- again in their casual clothing and often just wearing slippers. As the cursing continues, the regular police escaped in a police vehicle, and fully geared riot police came out for a crackdown with batons and tear gas again. That resulted in the residents fighting back with garbage and whatever items they can find at hand.
Again, I will stress that the police is doing it all wrong. When local residents are not afraid to come out and jeer at or even clash with the police in their decidedly unprotected state, it speaks volume of how much the police are hated by the general public.
Few things to keep in mind. Regardless of which country, police/government will not listen to anyone unless you're a leader (esp. in a riot) and able to calm the crowd.
In these HK situation, protesters are currently without a specific leader nor a supporting organization.
Dialogue:
Ted Hui (is a Democratic Party politician) is asking "Can I have a word with the commanding officer"
Commander:
Ted Hui, I am warning you again!
You are disrupting police with your protest amplifier.
If you don't stop, I'm going to take it away.
Ted Hui, In this operation, only police has the authority to determine where the blockade lines are set. It is not your decision.
Protesters are not listening to warnings, they are without backing / supporting organization. The only chant they are saying is "be water"
You are here to get exposure. Please do not get in the way of police work.
Who the fuck do you think you are to ask the commanding officer to chat with you.? You're an MP / politician, what right do you have to ask police to move the blockade line or delay their actions.
If you are the leader for the rioters and have ability to calm them, I can see why.
It's like having Downtown Vancouver MP, using a protest amplifier telling the RCMP during the Canucks riot to have a chat and maybe delay their crowd control...
That cop with the shotgun, somehow he waded directly into an angry mob, who subsequently attacked him. Like why would you even think to do that, ESPECIALLY if you have a shotgun on you?
Not trolling. Just funny cause he became famous as Mr. shotgun cop.
He is an officer and because of his ranking, he was allowed to have access to a shotgun. I can't imagine what would happen if he did fire any shots.
Of course, he's clearly aiming in this, what was before or after...
Kind of got caught up in the tail end of the protest in TKO... Was hard to get home, I actually had to take the MTR into town, then a bus home from the other side. Mostly students, but also saw lots of families marching with their kids. There were water stations, medics, it was pretty well organized and seemed to be going smoothly. Just showing their opinions of things. The mall was pretty dead compared to usual on a Sunday (they had signs in their windows politely asking police not to enter the private property, after what happened in Sha Tin). Some ground level stores were closed, the wet market was mostly empty for some reason.
It's getting really fucking carried away though, some protesters started throwing eggs at the police station... Normally I'd be OK with that since no damage is done, but then they started chucking bricks and breaking windows. I understand the rage, but that is not the way to go about things.
There was a gathering at a police residence last night (in HK all police/customs officers/etc live in quarters provided by the government). They weren't throwing bricks, but some residents in the building started throwing glass bottles at the protesters, and shooting them with fireworks
I wasn't going to reply to you but wanted to appreciate the unbiased 1st personal account. Keep those coming and ditch the posting of tweets and 15 sec vid clips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp
Kind of got caught up in the tail end of the protest in TKO... Was hard to get home, I actually had to take the MTR into town, then a bus home from the other side. Mostly students, but also saw lots of families marching with their kids. There were water stations, medics, it was pretty well organized and seemed to be going smoothly. Just showing their opinions of things. The mall was pretty dead compared to usual on a Sunday (they had signs in their windows politely asking police not to enter the private property, after what happened in Sha Tin). Some ground level stores were closed, the wet market was mostly empty for some reason.
It's getting really fucking carried away though, some protesters started throwing eggs at the police station... Normally I'd be OK with that since no damage is done, but then they started chucking bricks and breaking windows. I understand the rage, but that is not the way to go about things.
There was a gathering at a police residence last night (in HK all police/customs officers/etc live in quarters provided by the government). They weren't throwing bricks, but some residents in the building started throwing glass bottles at the protesters, and shooting them with fireworks
Although we hold the police conduct at a higher standard, the swearing comes from both sides skinnypupp. So many video I hear the protesters saying shit to the police.
I just think both parties are exhausted. To a point where it’s citizens vs police and they lost what they were fighting for in the beginning. Where the fuck is CE?
So many video I hear the protesters saying shit to the police.
I just think both parties are exhausted. To a point where it’s citizens vs police and they lost what they were fighting for in the beginning. Where the fuck is CE?
Yup. So so many videos from both sides.
-"why are police lining up blocking the road when there are no protester." It's called a blockade line.
-tons of videos of protesters wearing white shirts and then slip into the alley way putting on black shirts....
-tons of videos of people spray painting police stations, locking the station from the outside
-as skinnypup says, they were firing fireworks...
It's coming to a point these kids are just there to cause chaos.
CE has been missing for 11 days. I really don't know what people want from her.
Seriously, can anyone name the demands made? let alone how many there are?
Spoiler!
1) resign of CE
2) bill withdraw
3) independent inquiry
4) everyone arrested in respect of the clashes must be unconditionally freed.
5) government must retract its characterization of the violent clashes as “riots”
For the last 22 years, they have all wanted the CE to step down. Ain't going to happen. Bill is already "dead". CE won't come out to change her speech. The rest.. just won't happen, so what is there to ask for.... I can't see any of these demands being addressed.
^ This. Protesters and the common HK folks, you won one round ... know when to cash in and walk away. You have no idea how big of a win it was for you to have CL go on public TV and withdraw the extradition bill. Think of the face that they lost.
Now go back to school, go back to work before mom and dad (read China) bring out the feather duster and beat your arses.
^ This. Protesters and the common HK folks, you won one round ... know when to cash in and walk away. You have no idea how big of a win it was for CL to go on public TV and withdraw the extradition bill. Think of the face that they lost.
Now go back to school, go back to work before mom and dad (read China) bring out the feather duster and beat your arses.
Logically, I agree with what you said in the first paragraph, as in, it's probably the best course of action (best, not moral/right).
I just have to say though the last sentence comes off insensitive, whether you mean it or not. It just sounds like HK deserves the beating? (Which they shouldn't or don't)
I'm neutral/anti-protest for this ordeal (not whether the government is right or not), because, again, I may be ignorant, but I fail or haven't seen any positive change from this protest.
However, "That's life/Life's not fair/Suck it up" etc. (I'm not referring to anyone specifically) is far from what I feel for the people of Hong Kong. If anything, I pity them and feel bad for them. I was born in HK, and unless I'm forced to, there's no way I'm going back there to live, for political reason, and lifestyle reason as well (stress, housing, education).
If a friend/family ask me should they go attend the protest, I would tell them it's their choice, I won't stop you if you go, but I won't encourage you either. No one expects or wishes for casualties or injuries, but there were. But I hate to have that on my conscience, that I encourage a family or friend, and they get hurt, or even die, and I'm just sitting here comfortably in Vancouver.
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