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-   -   Hong Kong extradition protests (https://www.revscene.net/forums/716196-hong-kong-extradition-protests.html)

Badhobz 06-12-2019 09:36 PM
You keep reducing my specific arguments down to some inane babble about broad reaching conceptual applications. No, this is just about Hong Kong and not Sun Tzu art of war. Hong Kong is lost but one day there will be change and hopefully that day is sooner than later.

danned 06-12-2019 09:59 PM
https://i.imgur.com/D27cOmo.jpg

Hehe 06-12-2019 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by threezero (Post 8950674)
I also agree with Badhobz on that CCP has done very well for China. They literally took China from nothing to a global superpower and economic powerhouse.

CCP is the greatest dynasty that China has ever had in its long history.

Most of the generation that benefit from this dynasty is still very well alive. They remember what it was like in the beginning and its hard to argue with them that they should fight against the CCP.

After all why should they, the CCP lead them from nothing to the prosperity they have now. In fact they have everything to lose. Why should they fight for this imaginary freedom thing they've never had and risk loosing everything they gain along the way.

They've follow the rule and play the game. And you have to be honest they did pretty well doing so. This is different than a say a dictatorship in Africa.

China has a functional economic system and wealthy, a rich middle and upper class. Tech, art luxury. Whatever a functional first world society need, China has.

This comes at a cost of freedom. Or rather a democratic western version of freedom. Freedom that nobody alive in Mainland china has EVER experience.

Majority of the Chinese citizen is not suffering. They are thriving in what the rest of the world call a Facist state. It make no sense for a thriving population to revolt against their king.

Yes you will suffer some inconvienece along the way, the king might made some bad call that affect minorities (aka not themselves) but overall keep your head down and you will live a good life.

Following this logic, its hard for Mainlander to understand HK's fight. There is no use trying to explain the freedom they are defending because its a completely foreign concept to them. To mainlander HK is being a little bitch/princess.

When you have kneel too long, it is strange to see other people standing.


I do believe HK is fighting a lost cause. The CCP will not yield to them. The more you fight the more they will oppress. Regardless I'm rooting for this lost cause.

HK is special not only because of its culture and its ex colonial root. Being part of China, Hong Konger is the ONLY Chinese population that remembers and know what is human right and freedom like the rest of the free world. And good on them for trying to protect it for the future generation.
No. If you follow the progression of Chinese wealth development from an economic perspective, things really only exploded after China joined the WTO.

The WTO allowed China to become the manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Its further growth until today was possible because it fulfilled NONE of its WTO obligations that it AGREED to do.

And I'm sick and tired of people saying CCP was the greatest thing ever happened to modern China. Take other Asian countries who aren't communist like Taiwan, Singapore (not exactly democratic, but some elements), South Korea... etc.

They have done just fine with democracy. Yes, they all have its share of problems, but they all prosper in their own ways and are major players in the global economy in many industries.

If China had gone democratic, I'm sure it too will have some shitty problems, however, I'm also sure it will be a dominant player in many industries.

Stop praising CCP for what China is today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that China could have been even better without CCP? If democracy would bring nothing but chaos to China, how the fuck the US became world superpower by being democratic?!

Manic! 06-12-2019 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Great68 (Post 8950662)
I don't think he's saying it's fine the way it is, as much as he's saying the fight is completely futile and might as well assimilate and make the best out of a bad thing.
Fuck that shit. Never give up no mater how bad it becomes.


Spoiler!

SkinnyPupp 06-12-2019 10:57 PM
LegCo meeting canceled again. Round 2 win

SkinnyPupp 06-12-2019 11:06 PM
Just for fun, look at how China's news source is covering it

Peaceful expression urged amid HK demonstrations - Chinadaily.com.cn

Quote:
Protesters besieged Hong Kong's Legislative Council and government headquarters on Wednesday morning, blocked nearby roads and damaged cars in opposition to the city's extradition law amendments, throwing the city into chaos.

Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor, the special administrative region's chief executive, said in an interview with the city's leading broadcaster - Television Broadcasts Ltd - that she was "saddened" and "worried" about the violent clashes during the day. Young people might end up doing something they may regret in the future, Lam said.

She appealed to the public to express their opinions in a rational and peaceful way.

Lam said the government will press ahead with the amendments despite the violent demonstrations.

Different authorities appealed to the public to stay calm. The special administrative region's Chief Secretary for Administration Matthew Cheung Kin-chung called on protesters to stop occupying the area and restrain themselves from unlawful behavior.

Similar to the illegal "Occupy Central" movement in 2014, tens of thousands of masked protesters, in opposition to the extradition law amendments, occupied the main roads outside the government headquarters and the Legislative Council Complex in Admiralty, Hong Kong Island, despite repeated orders by police to leave the sites. The chaos brought serious disruptions to traffic and nearby business activity.

Cheung made the appeal in a video speech released after the Legislative Council announced it will postpone the second reading of the bill, as the protesters have blocked the lawmakers' access to the Legislative Council building.

Cheung stressed that the proposed amendments to the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance and Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Ordinance only deal with suspects who have committed serious crimes outside the special administrative region.

He reiterated that the SAR government will strictly safeguard the rights of Hong Kong residents and the city's rule of law.

Following his appeal, a government spokesman also issued a statement calling on the public to stay away from the area and remain calm.

In Beijing, Geng Shuang, spokesman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, reiterated the central government's firm support for the SAR government's proposal to amend the extradition law. Hong Kong's mainstream public opinion is opposed to any acts that will jeopardize the city's prosperity and stability, Geng said.

The protest started in the early hours of Wednesday. Masked protesters equipped with umbrellas and goggles built metal barricades, and some protesters were seen prying bricks from the sidewalk.

In the afternoon, some protesters threw objects at the police, including bottles and trash bins. They also grabbed and rearranged the metal barricades set in front of the building. Tear gas, rubber bullets and pepper spray were used against protesters who stormed the line of police outside the building.

Some police officers were injured during the clashes. More than 20 protesters were injured and taken to hospitals.

Several public events were canceled. Some banks and stores in Admiralty and Wan Chai closed temporarily due to the demonstrations.

Commissioner of Police Stephen Lo Wai-chung strongly condemned the demonstrators' "irresponsible" conduct, which he said endangered the lives of the demonstrators and innocent people.

Lo urged them to stop clashing with police and occupying major roads of the city. He also called on the public to leave the area in an orderly manner for their safety.

The Colloquium of Six Religious Leaders of Hong Kong issued a statement on Wednesday, echoing the call for people to express their concerns through dialogue in a rational and peaceful way.

Hong Kong stocks tumbled on Wednesday as sentiments dimmed over a number of factors, including paralyzed traffic in the city's financial district.
All the other stories are claiming that the west is interfering, and causing these people to violently attack the police.

Apparently in Chinese language papers, they are saying that the 1 million person march was in celebration of being closer to China, and all the petitions people are signing are to show support for the bill.

SMFH FailFish

Traum 06-12-2019 11:28 PM
Bravo, sir! Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbsup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hehe (Post 8950685)
No. If you follow the progression of Chinese wealth development from an economic perspective, things really only exploded after China joined the WTO.

The WTO allowed China to become the manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Its further growth until today was possible because it fulfilled NONE of its WTO obligations that it AGREED to do.

And I'm sick and tired of people saying CCP was the greatest thing ever happened to modern China. Take other Asian countries who aren't communist like Taiwan, Singapore (not exactly democratic, but some elements), South Korea... etc.

They have done just fine with democracy. Yes, they all have its share of problems, but they all prosper in their own ways and are major players in the global economy in many industries.

If China had gone democratic, I'm sure it too will have some shitty problems, however, I'm also sure it will be a dominant player in many industries.

Stop praising CCP for what China is today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that China could have been even better without CCP? If democracy would bring nothing but chaos to China, how the fuck the US became world superpower by being democratic?!

twitchyzero 06-12-2019 11:43 PM
if the nationalists never lost to the communists during the civil war, would China be more like Taiwan or India?

g'damn google's spying on my posts...this came up on my feed

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...ve-back-canada

Traum 06-13-2019 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero (Post 8950701)
if the nationalists never lost to the communists during the civil war, would China be more like Taiwan or India?
One of the reasons that CCP won the civil war was because the Nationalists were corrupt AF at the time. Furthermore, Chiang Kai-shek also didn't seem like he was all that good of a person either. It wasn't until CKS' son -- Chiang Ching-kuo -- came into power when citizens' welfare was treated as a priority.

threezero 06-13-2019 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hehe (Post 8950685)
No. If you follow the progression of Chinese wealth development from an economic perspective, things really only exploded after China joined the WTO.

The WTO allowed China to become the manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Its further growth until today was possible because it fulfilled NONE of its WTO obligations that it AGREED to do.

And I'm sick and tired of people saying CCP was the greatest thing ever happened to modern China. Take other Asian countries who aren't communist like Taiwan, Singapore (not exactly democratic, but some elements), South Korea... etc.

They have done just fine with democracy. Yes, they all have its share of problems, but they all prosper in their own ways and are major players in the global economy in many industries.

If China had gone democratic, I'm sure it too will have some shitty problems, however, I'm also sure it will be a dominant player in many industries.

Stop praising CCP for what China is today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that China could have been even better without CCP? If democracy would bring nothing but chaos to China, how the fuck the US became world superpower by being democratic?!
I don't disagree with what you are saying. You and I having been brought up in a democratic society can see this side of the argument. However this is still just a "what if" situation and honestly is a completely westernize view of thing that 99% of mainlander would not understand. Views like this just help CCP promote the "us vs them" mentality and further their propaganda.

What I said in the previous post is fact. Sure CCP may have overstate their important in the success of modern China. Yes WTO and the rest of the world assist China into the powerhouse that it is. The fact is China has ALWAYS been a country rule by king and dynasties. CCP just so happens to be these best dynasty the Chinese people has ever had. Ask most mainlander and they will agree. Propaganda or not, they live through this and from their vantage point that all they know.

You have mentioned that democratic worked for some asian countries. Democracy has also failed some certain other asian countries. You are asking the people to overthrow something they knew have worked for decades for something that may or may not work. Not to mention to do that you have to completely reshuffle the entire society.

WTO may have help China along. But CCP's nationalist policy and corruptness have also directly contribute to majority of their citizen wealth. At least from their point of view.

You are telling the Chinese people that everything they have now, they could of done without CCP. Why dont you give all that up, overthrow the existing establishment and everything they have know. Restart with democracy. I promise it will work!

The western world looks on the outside and wonder why the Chinese people don't just get up and overthrow the government. If you look through history every revolution comes with bloodshed and a general re shuffling of society. Why would a thriving population do that? Because somebody that has the privilege of growing up in a democracy society promise it would work?

Or should they just follow a leader that has done pretty good so far, continue making a good salary and be taken care of when they retire.


That also why the protest in HK is so so so important to the Chinese people. Unlike mainlander, the Hong Konger know. They know what they have and they know what can be. And to them CCP did not grant them the prosperity they have and thus they are willing to throw down for what they believe.

If there is going to be any changes in China. I really believe it starts with Hong Kong. This fight might be futile but it is not in vain.

SkinnyPupp 06-13-2019 12:28 AM

Quote:
transcript of the Now News reporting implies Beijing might be distancing itself from the Carrie Lam government in possible prep for retraction and inevitable fall guy

"according to reports from Beijing-friendly sources, the person who proposed the Bill was Carrie Lam, and not Beijing. That she has misread the will of the people, and unwisely handled the situation, and that the political crisis she has instigated has already damaged HK's international position. And that now that the situation has evolved to this point, it would be difficult for Beijing to meet halfway without sacrificing Carrie Lam"
Edit: original source is NY Times

If this is true, looks like they're getting ready to scrap it for now and she'll be the fall guy to be scrapped along with the bill.

Beijing will put up one evil puppet after another, and HK will fight each and every one of them. Every single day until 2047. Then what? I don't know...

Tim Budong 06-13-2019 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp (Post 8950710)
https://twitter.com/HK6127/status/1139085534079475712



If this is true, looks like they're getting ready to scrap it for now and she'll be the fall guy to be scrapped along with the bill.

Beijing will put up one evil puppet after another, and HK will fight each and every one of them. Every single day until 2047. Then what? I don't know...
i was gonna post this

small victories if true. Numbers will be bigger than Wednesday if this goes on into the weekend

SkinnyPupp 06-13-2019 12:36 AM
Cops are going to hospitals, arresting people who were injured in the protest. Since they declared it a riot, they can charge them. Thankfully HK still has a fair legal system, so they should be able to fight these charges. If the bill passes, they'll all probably disappear never to be seen again.

Traum 06-13-2019 12:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp (Post 8950713)
Cops are going to hospitals, arresting people who were injured in the protest. Since they declared it a riot, they can charge them. Thankfully HK still has a fair legal system, so they should be able to fight these charges. If the bill passes, they'll all probably disappear never to be seen again.
Sadly, I have to disagree with you on the statement that HK still has a fair legal system. The local courts as well as the "Justice Minister" have pretty much been replaced with puppets that will do whatever bidding their Beijing masters wishes them to do. When you look at the Benny Tai and Occupy Central rulings, it is obvious that those are political persecutions. The kids from the Mong Kok "riot" was handed 7+ yrs of jail time. Only the Supreme Court might still have a chance in delivering justice.

SkinnyPupp 06-13-2019 01:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traum (Post 8950715)
Sadly, I have to disagree with you on the statement that HK still has a fair legal system. The local courts as well as the "Justice Minister" have pretty much been replaced with puppets that will do whatever bidding their Beijing masters wishes them to do. When you look at the Benny Tai and Occupy Central rulings, it is obvious that those are political persecutions. The kids from the Mong Kok "riot" was handed 7+ yrs of jail time. Only the Supreme Court might still have a chance in delivering justice.
That's true now that I think of it... I was thinking more in a non-political way still. FeelsBadMan

DragonChi 06-13-2019 05:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hehe (Post 8950685)
No. If you follow the progression of Chinese wealth development from an economic perspective, things really only exploded after China joined the WTO.

The WTO allowed China to become the manufacturing powerhouse it is today. Its further growth until today was possible because it fulfilled NONE of its WTO obligations that it AGREED to do.

And I'm sick and tired of people saying CCP was the greatest thing ever happened to modern China. Take other Asian countries who aren't communist like Taiwan, Singapore (not exactly democratic, but some elements), South Korea... etc.

They have done just fine with democracy. Yes, they all have its share of problems, but they all prosper in their own ways and are major players in the global economy in many industries.

If China had gone democratic, I'm sure it too will have some shitty problems, however, I'm also sure it will be a dominant player in many industries.

Stop praising CCP for what China is today. Have you ever thought of the possibility that China could have been even better without CCP? If democracy would bring nothing but chaos to China, how the fuck the US became world superpower by being democratic?!
Interesting, I thought that Deng Xiao Ping was widely regarded for economic reforms that led to China's growth. Primarily the change from state owned land and businesses to citizen owned ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chines...ing's_rule

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2...nsformed-china

Do you have further readings on how joining the WTO enabled China to do business with other countries and become a manufacturing power house?

Badhobz 06-13-2019 06:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonChi (Post 8950722)
Interesting, I thought that Deng Xiao Ping was widely regarded for economic reforms that led to China's growth. Primarily the change from state owned land and businesses to citizen owned ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chines...ing's_rule

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2...nsformed-china

Do you have further readings on how joining the WTO enabled China to do business with other countries and become a manufacturing power house?
You're right. It was primarily Deng's "opening" of capitalism and economic reform that set the foundations for China's economic rise. The WTO wouldn't have accepted China if it wasnt for Deng's opening

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform

yray 06-13-2019 08:33 AM
Hey Badhobz, your family got CCP'd during the cultural revolution or the during the fall of the nationalist??

Badhobz 06-13-2019 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yray (Post 8950746)
Hey Badhobz, your family got CCP'd during the cultural revolution or the during the fall of the nationalist??
Both. When the commies first came in they got stripped and separated. Then in the cultural rev they "reeducated" my grandparents due to their neighbors denouncing them as rich elities. My gramps on my mom side was never the same after that. He pushed my mom to leave Shanghai afterwards so that's why we bounced in 1990 (which was hard as fuck cuz almost nobody was able to immigrate to western nations at that period).
I got no love for the ccp, hell I'm an only child because of their policies.

However it's still my home country. It's still my people and I'm damn proud that China is able to stand on a world footing with western nations. CCP sucks but I ain't going to deny they elevated our people as a whole.

Hehe 06-13-2019 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by threezero (Post 8950709)
I don't disagree with what you are saying. You and I having been brought up in a democratic society can see this side of the argument. However this is still just a "what if" situation and honestly is a completely westernize view of thing that 99% of mainlander would not understand. Views like this just help CCP promote the "us vs them" mentality and further their propaganda.

What I said in the previous post is fact. Sure CCP may have overstate their important in the success of modern China. Yes WTO and the rest of the world assist China into the powerhouse that it is. The fact is China has ALWAYS been a country rule by king and dynasties. CCP just so happens to be these best dynasty the Chinese people has ever had. Ask most mainlander and they will agree. Propaganda or not, they live through this and from their vantage point that all they know.

You have mentioned that democratic worked for some asian countries. Democracy has also failed some certain other asian countries. You are asking the people to overthrow something they knew have worked for decades for something that may or may not work. Not to mention to do that you have to completely reshuffle the entire society.

WTO may have help China along. But CCP's nationalist policy and corruptness have also directly contribute to majority of their citizen wealth. At least from their point of view.

You are telling the Chinese people that everything they have now, they could of done without CCP. Why dont you give all that up, overthrow the existing establishment and everything they have know. Restart with democracy. I promise it will work!

The western world looks on the outside and wonder why the Chinese people don't just get up and overthrow the government. If you look through history every revolution comes with bloodshed and a general re shuffling of society. Why would a thriving population do that? Because somebody that has the privilege of growing up in a democracy society promise it would work?

Or should they just follow a leader that has done pretty good so far, continue making a good salary and be taken care of when they retire.


That also why the protest in HK is so so so important to the Chinese people. Unlike mainlander, the Hong Konger know. They know what they have and they know what can be. And to them CCP did not grant them the prosperity they have and thus they are willing to throw down for what they believe.

If there is going to be any changes in China. I really believe it starts with Hong Kong. This fight might be futile but it is not in vain.
I get what you are saying, but I'd put it this way... people who I encounter the most saying that without CCP, China wouldn't be like this blah blah blah are 99% born and bred Chinese.

That is the biggest hypocrisy I've ever heard and really show how successful CCP is at brainwashing Chinese citizens.

In their opinion, they are questioning democracy while they have NEVER EVER had democracy. How the fuck can you remotely comment on something you have never experienced? They have NO idea about the power of democracy. It's about accountability (of those in power), freedom, choice, fairness... and so much more.

As of right now, the CCP can do whatever the fuck they want and never have repercussions about their decisions. Worse, with the recent constitution amendment, Xi can stay indefinitely in power. And you know what they say... with absolute power, comes absolute corruption.

Hondaracer 06-13-2019 12:52 PM
You can’t honestly think China would be where they are today if they had a true democracy. Wouldn’t happen

One of the biggest reasons why they are where they are is that govt. and “private” industry are essentially one. Huawei and all these GIGANTIC companies as well as resource development, oil and gas, etc. are all state backed

The wealth and influence of the nation and it’s govt. Would be nothing compared to this current blurred line of public/private interests

Look at what they are doing all over Africa, sponsoring massive infrastructure projects to essentially get their foot in the door on resource development. Literally the only other country that does this on this scale is Russia, and they are both this quasi “free” state. :/

68style 06-13-2019 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp (Post 8950713)
Cops are going to hospitals, arresting people who were injured in the protest. Since they declared it a riot, they can charge them. Thankfully HK still has a fair legal system, so they should be able to fight these charges. If the bill passes, they'll all probably disappear never to be seen again.
Do you have a source for this? I am interested in this particular topic.

twdm 06-13-2019 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badhobz (Post 8950753)
Both. When the commies first came in they got stripped and separated. Then in the cultural rev they "reeducated" my grandparents due to their neighbors denouncing them as rich elities. My gramps on my mom side was never the same after that. He pushed my mom to leave Shanghai afterwards so that's why we bounced in 1990 (which was hard as fuck cuz almost nobody was able to immigrate to western nations at that period).
I got no love for the ccp, hell I'm an only child because of their policies.

However it's still my home country. It's still my people and I'm damn proud that China is able to stand on a world footing with western nations. CCP sucks but I ain't going to deny they elevated our people as a whole.
If you're so proud, then why aren't you back there supporting your supposedly wonderful country. It's a bit rich when someone who is proud of their despotic country but decides they rather bail and live in a free and democratic country.

underscore 06-13-2019 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danned (Post 8950684)
Thanks for the circle, I would've missed it otherwise.

Badhobz 06-13-2019 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twdm (Post 8950817)
If you're so proud, then why aren't you back there supporting your supposedly wonderful country. It's a bit rich when someone who is proud of their despotic country but decides they rather bail and live in a free and democratic country.
You're fucking stupid.


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