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There were wide spread rumored of the death of one of the young protestor at the Price Edward station. He went unconscious with eyes wide open and collapsed on the subway platform while he was holding down by Raptor police squad. The whole incident was captured on the live stream.
No official death has been reported by the hospital and mortuary yet.
Quote:
The station has been lockdown by the police for almost 48hrs without any reason. That's why people believed there are protestors die inside and police trying to cover up the evidence
No official statement yet, but can you even trust official statements at this point.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp
I didn't see any videos of "protesters beating on seniors". I saw a video of protesters arguing with some older HKers, and then it got physical when an old guy started attacking press members with a fucking hammer, and then got broken up when protesters stepped in.
You want so bad to hate protesters... Sometimes I think you pull through here and there, but man you are trying hard. I don't know why.. There are clear "right and wrong" sides here, regardless of tactics being used by individuals on the "right" side.
You must've watched a different video than me then... Cuz the guy with the hammer wasn't the first senior assaulted in that video, not the last one, nor was it the only incident as subsequent videos showed.
You need to stop minimizing the antics of the protesters, and ignoring the steep biases of their supporters (like twdm)
You also need to look at the context of the convo between twdm and I that you chimed in on, the point is, protesters are creating an "us" vs "them" attitude, where if u disagree with anything they're doing, you're now one of "them" and open to their onslaught... We see it from twdms comments, and we saw it that night in the MTR, because those seniors clearly disagreed with their antics, they were open to their onslaught, which included physical assault
I only answer to my username, my real name is Irrelevant!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CELICAland
Posts: 25,668
Thanked 10,388 Times in 3,914 Posts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 320icar
^^ the us vs them attitude is clear with you, with All the posts you’ve thanked. Same goes for me, traum, skinnypup, badhobz etc.
It is what it is
U can't discern anything from my thanks, but that still doesn't denote an us vs them, it shouldn't
Just because you disagree with tactics protesters take doesn't mean you're against all protesters, or in twdms case "u must be for the CCP" if you take that attitude Ur imagined cause is doomed
Everyone should be against things that are wrong, the cops beating those crouching kids on the MTR is wrong, the protesters beating citizens who disagree with them is wrong
U can't discern anything from my thanks, but that still doesn't denote an us vs them, it shouldn't
Just because you disagree with tactics protesters take doesn't mean you're against all protesters, or in twdms case "u must be for the CCP" if you take that attitude Ur imagined cause is doomed
Everyone should be against things that are wrong, the cops beating those crouching kids on the MTR is wrong, the protesters beating citizens who disagree with them is wrong
Destroying the city, is wrong...
The amount of people justifying citizen on citizen violence is mind blowing….
If you think the police beating up people indiscriminate is wrong than so should mob justice.
It seems like almost everybody that got beat up/gang up/ injured by the protestor is either CCP agent/Paid actor/ undercover cops or whatever identify the angry mob brands him to be in the short yelling match before being mobbed.
How is that any different from the police running into the MTR station and randomly targeting people that they think is a protestor?
We all think the police running and beating people up is cruel, wrong and mess up. Yet we can't agree on protestor hurting other people??????????
Hong Kong is clearly divided. Hurting people is Wrong period. Even the city can't agree on this simple basic fact.
Carrie Lam's leaked conversation is extremely revealing for all the reasons that you have cited (and then some). I sincerely hope the protesters will take the Reuters news report to heart, and adjust and plan their next moves accordingly.
IMHO, the pressure on the HKSAR gov and HKPD must continue because that's how you'd get them to crack and make mistakes. And the more mistakes they commit, the more pressure there is for them to reconcile one way or another. (In a sense, what Carrie Lam has done with the Reuters leak now is already a form of reconciliation.) But the difficulty is -- how can that be achieved while maintaining minimal losses of the protesters and its support? Over 1000 arrests have already been made, and if these arrests continue, the number of harder line / front line protesters willing to put pressure on the HKSAR gov and the HKPD will dwindle.
One thing is certain though -- given how the HKPD have gone batshxt crazy in using excessive and unnecessary force, it is essential to continue exposing their unforgivable crimes.
-Lam said she would quit if she had the choice to do so. But can't
-China is playing the long-game. No plan to send PLA
-Complains how this whole thing has ruined her daily life, and how she can't even go to the hair salon or go shopping (FFS).
-She has little options/control on whats going to happen, as it is being dictated by the national party. This confirms she's just a puppet as most people have already known all along.
And.... cue the wumaos and pro-china people saying:
1. Reuters is a foreign spy agency trying to ruin China and Hong Kong
2. Fake news
3. China is going to send PLA and kill all the protestors
Not sure what else people would expect with the tension of millions of protesters,and cops sent in specifically to antagonize.
I think China has just a little bit of experience dealing with rebellions..
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I think China has just a little bit of experience dealing with rebellions..
They have plenty of experience dealing with / suppressing rebellions in a closed society such as Xinjiang, Tibet, or another other city in China. But they do not have any experience in suppressing rebellions / protests in a mostly open society such as Hong Kong. And because of that, many of their standard rebellion suppression tricks that work well in China cannot be used in Hong Kong. And that puts them in a difficult situation.
These hongers are starting to buy up some homes around my area. Looks like the migration is starting!!! (Wonder if they'll have block wars with local mainlanders in the same area )
These hongers are starting to buy up some homes around my area. Looks like the migration is starting!!! (Wonder if they'll have block wars with local mainlanders in the same area )
weeks ago my coworker was already aware of 4 families moving back immediately. it's happening for sure. to what degree? time will tell
I think it's clear that a lot of people are looking at this through a lens of privilege (not even talking about the fascists here). Maybe because revolutions aren't observed until after they happen? Or when it does, it's in a country most people don't give a shit about? I don't know.
I think part of it is that people here aren't considering the gravity of the situation. This isn't a mindless mob going insane because their hockey team lost.
It's not even a protest over one single issue, like a guy getting killed by a cop
Compared to some recent protests, this has been pretty peaceful on the part of one side. MOST of the violence is only coming from one side, and that's the police. And also triad members and thugs brought in from the mainland. Yes, there have been a few belligerent protesters, and that's unfortunate. There's no way to excuse when someone hurts someone else, no matter what the reason.
But these are extreme times... It's not a game for many of these people, they are literally fighting for their lives. I wouldn't want to get in their way.
As for my posts, I am just trying to shine a light on what is going on here, from the perspective of the people. If you think my posts are biased... You should see local social media (you can get a peek at in English it if you go to reddit hong kong). My posts are filtering out a lot of the bullshit coming from the pro-democracy side (and there's plenty of it). That's why you didn't see me posting about that guy with the airsoft gun, for instance, or later "evidence" that he was a cop. There is definitely some intentional misinformation coming from that side, and I'm trying to sort through it.
I am more anti-fascist than I am pro-protester. Mostly I'm an observer.
-Lam said she would quit if she had the choice to do so. But can't
-China is playing the long-game. No plan to send PLA
-Complains how this whole thing has ruined her daily life, and how she can't even go to the hair salon or go shopping (FFS).
-She has little options/control on whats going to happen, as it is being dictated by the national party. This confirms she's just a puppet as most people have already known all along.
And.... cue the wumaos and pro-china people saying:
1. Reuters is a foreign spy agency trying to ruin China and Hong Kong
2. Fake news
3. China is going to send PLA and kill all the protestors
Let's bump this to the new page, because it's pretty huge.
She has confirmed that she has absolutely no power. The CE is just a puppet of the China government, no matter what HK's constitution says. This is the main issue people are fighting for. "One Country, Two Systems" is effectively dead unless the people of HK win this battle.
"Absolutely no plan to send in the PLA". As I mentioned before, all their movements on the border and propaganda videos of them beating up fake protesters have been (completely ineffective) scare tactics
Not a huge issue for me, but complaining about not being able to go shopping or to the hair salon really shows a lack of empathy in the situation. Why bring it up at all?
Also I can't believe how absolutely INSANE it is to equate police violence IN ANY FUCKING WAY with violence from ANY citizens EVER.
STOP AND THINK AGAIN if such thoughts come to your mind. PLEASE!
Police Brutality is 100x worse than citizen vs citizen violence. You are not wrong, Complete agreement here.
What is wrong is people justifying why a certain citizen deserves to get beaten up because they are somehow "the others", or some other hidden identify that conflicts with the movement.
It is not okay under any circumstance for a group people to beat up other people because of a unproven (or even proven) accusation and it is certainly not okay to beat up people because you are angry an the establishment (even if rightly so).
Just like it is not okay for police brutality of any matter.
To revenge police brutality by turning it into justification for mob violence (however it might be justifiable at the time) is not going to be okay in most citizen's mind. Because all that really represent is that you will be silence with force, that is not all that different from what CCP and the police is doing, the exact thing everybody is fighting against.
Whether this is a revolution or destruction of Hong Kong is not actually up to us to decide. It is how the society rebuild itself after the dust settle that will be seen as judgement for the action of today.
You do not rebuild a society by destroy the very fabric citizen to citizen trust and relationship. A society build upon "you are with me or against me" is scary and you can't blame people for being angry at police brutality AND citizen on citizen brutality.
I do think you are biases but you are right you are already much more tame than the radical pro-democracy crowd but I don't agree with the mentality of this or that guy deserve to get beat up for xyz reason, and I also don't agree that police should went in guns blazing indiscriminately. There are alot of people like this in Hong Kong you can't alienate this portion of society just for a revolution that is supposedly for the entire Hong Kong.
You need to stop minimizing the antics of the protesters, and ignoring the steep biases of their supporters (like twdm)
You also need to look at the context of the convo between twdm and I that you chimed in on, the point is, protesters are creating an "us" vs "them" attitude, where if u disagree with anything they're doing, you're now one of "them" and open to their onslaught... We see it from twdms comments, and we saw it that night in the MTR, because those seniors clearly disagreed with their antics, they were open to their onslaught, which included physical assault
I only called you out on your logical inconsistencies saying how it is crazy for Hong Kongers to think of the MTR as with or against the protest because it is not a "person". At the same time you didn't condemn the CCP for making cathay choose between the government or the protestors. Cathay is also not a "person". I didn't tell anyone to beat you down, so I'm not sure why you got your jimmies rustled.
You somehow made wild connections to things that have no relationship further consistent with the 5 cent army accusation.
U can't discern anything from my thanks, but that still doesn't denote an us vs them, it shouldn't
Just because you disagree with tactics protesters take doesn't mean you're against all protesters, or in twdms case "u must be for the CCP" if you take that attitude Ur imagined cause is doomed
Everyone should be against things that are wrong, the cops beating those crouching kids on the MTR is wrong, the protesters beating citizens who disagree with them is wrong
Destroying the city, is wrong...
Ya, within the few million protesters, not all protesters are bad protestors and not all cops are bad cops. Like you said, if you disagree with tactics of these protesters doesnt mean you're against all protesters and you shouldnt stop believing on what you believe. Most of these bad protesters that you have mention have got their punishment. Some of them have been arrested and got beaten by the cops quite badly with excessive force. As for those cops that were beating those crouching kids on MTR, if you believe that they were wrong. Why are no justice being served? What about those gangsters that were beating citizens? How come there were 1000 protestors arrested but only 2 gangsters and 0 corrupted cops arrested?
Do you or for anyone who are against violence. Do you agree with the fact that 1 of the 5 demands of the protest must be met? And that is: A commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality.
I completely agree with you that destroying the city is wrong, and that is tyranny.
Ya, within the few millions protesters, not all protesters are bad protestors and not all cops are bad cops. Like you said, if you disagree with tactics of these protesters doesnt mean you're against all protesters and you wouldnt stop believing on what you believe. Most of these bad protesters that you have mention have got their punishment. Some of them have been arrested and got beaten by the cops quite badly with excessive force. As for those cops that were beating those crouching kids on MTR, if you believe that they were wrong. Why are no justice being served? What about those gangsters that were beating citizens? How come there were 1000 protestors arrested but only 2 gangsters and 0 corrupted cops arrested?
Do you or for anyone who are against violence. Do you agree with the fact that 1 of the 5 demands of the protest must be met? And that is: A commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality.
I completely agree with you that destroying the city is wrong, and that is tyranny.
So tore on this. I supported a commission of independent inquiry on police and immunity for those arrest for protesting in the beginning month.
Water has gotten so muddy since, it is really hard to draw a line at which point should immunity be granted for protestor and up to what extent. And also for the police, which of the action is to be punish and which action is okay. It get muddier every time there is a physical conflict, which doesn't show sign of slowing down.
I don't feel like there will be a satisfy middle ground for both side at least not at this point in time. Both side is not down for discussion, only argument and finger pointing from both side.
Our of the five demands, these two demands overshadows the rest as more and more protest escalated into violence and chaos. By bundling in these two demands with the rest of the demand, it mean the movement cannot resolve until all 5 demand is met.
And honestly I dont think these two demands can be met without the basis of the others anyways so it is pointless to argue for these two without the government promising
a) completely withdrawal of the bill
b) Carrie Lam to step down
c) Real universal suffrage
Aka the real core of the movement and is the real symbol of China recognizing the One country two system setup. The other two demands can happen after the three above is met. And honestly if some innocent protestor needs to go to jail or some crook cop get a pass in order to achieve the above three, most people would think that is worth it for what it brings to the their future. This is how martys are made, making sacrifices for the greater good.
Drop other two demands because that just about retribution for both sides at this point. It is not backing down, It is showing that the movement know what exactly they are fighting.
It's almost like they want more people than ever to hit the streets
What's interesting is that everything China is doing is literally the opposite of what you'd do to quell a movement like this. They are provoking, inciting, and convincing more and more of the average citizen to want to fight against them.
This was all confusing until the recent suggestion that what we see today is just a repeat of 2014 (i.e. battle between Jiang Zemin's camp and Xi). Back in 2014, the NPC, headed by Zhang Dejiang (affiliated with Jiang), decided to make its decision about universal suffrage on August 31. There were rumors that it was done as retaliation against Xi or to curb Xi's corruption drive / war against his enemies.
Fast forward to today, I initially did not really understand the situation given that Xi should have consolidated his power already. That was until I read about Han Zheng (the 7th Standing Committee Member of the Politburo) being affiliated with Jiang (which makes sense given their past in Shanghai). Han Zheng summoned Lam Cheng to Shenzhen twice over the past few months, while Lam Cheng would not even shake hands with Wang Zhimin (of the Liaison Office) several months ago who has been known to be affiliated with Xi.
On the supposed leaked tape, Lam Cheng is just delusional. She was the one dragging China into her failed bill. To state that she has the power to invoke the Emergency Regulations Ordinance while suggesting that she has no power to withdraw the bill is just contradictory. I do not (and certainly no reasonable person would) see withdrawing the bill as China's showing its weakness.
Regarding the police - Regardless of what they are going through mentally and physically, they are collectively expected to act lawfully and behave professionally. Most people understand they have a tough job to do but it is their lack of accountability that caused them to lose the public's trust. Aside from the many incidents involving the use of excessive or unjustifiable force, their strike team deliberately hide their badge numbers on the uniforms, and their commanders blatantly allowed them to. If this is not misconduct in public office, I do not know what is. The police is corrupted to its very core.
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Ezekiel 25:17. The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.
This was all confusing until the recent suggestion that what we see today is just a repeat of 2014 (i.e. battle between Jiang Zemin's camp and Xi). Back in 2014, the NPC, headed by Zhang Dejiang (affiliated with Jiang), decided to make its decision about universal suffrage on August 31. There were rumors that it was done as retaliation against Xi or to curb Xi's corruption drive / war against his enemies.
Do you have more info on all this stuff? Maybe a video in English discussing it, or an article? That's just a lot of damn names to me
Basically kid yells at the police where is your conscience and 7-8 policemen chase him down and beat him bloody.
A brief description for those who don't understand the Cantonese dialogue in the video here.
The young man in white had called out to the black cops from across the street, asking them where their conscience has gone. Upon hearing this, one of the cops jeered back, saying their conscience were right there. But some other black cops flipped out / lost their shxt, and immediately gave chase to the young man.
They obviously caught up to him, and went on to beat the living shxt out of him. (The young man later said he had been clubed 6 times, and I also saw at least 1 kick that made contact with some part of the young man.) From the video, you can easily see how the back of the head of this young man has been bloodied, and yet he remained relatively calm, and continued to reason with the black cops, asking for the reasons of the bloody beating they gave him.
Notice how a black cop was filming the young man as he loudly questioned the police about the beating. Had there been any physical contact with the cops (from even a careless or unintentional swing), or any advancement towards them, he would have been charged for assaulting the police. (It's a tactic that has been used repeatedly during these rounds of protests.)
Another black cop was heard telling the young man he is free to file a police complaint if he so chooses. And yet everyone in Hong Kong knows the police complaint process is severely flawed, with a complaint board that is entirely biased against the complaintants. Furthermore, any police complaints that do not include specific police badge numbers will be brushed off as non-specific and therefore un-investigatable. But the irony is, riot police have long adopted the practice since the start of these protests -- a practice that is against their own police procedures and policies -- to not display any identifying designations, including their warrant cards and badge numbers. Therefore, any complaint is guaranteed to end up getting tossed out.
The young man ended up getting taken away by the police in a police vehicle. It is not obvious how the incident ended afterwards.
For those posting on this thread, I am curious about what you think are the chances that the Beijing will send in the army from Shenzhen and use the military garrison in HK to stop the protest?
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