REVscene Automotive Forum - Hong Kong extradition protests

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Quote:

Originally Posted by StylinRed (Post 8961506)

You're basically saying all attacks are justified, and any innocents that are caught up, or victims of violence, aren't innocent.... Uh... Yeah no, that's not how thiggs work

And also, ignoring the fact that people have been beaten after being falsely accused:

This is about the oct1 violence
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49891403

Stupid wanton violence

Falsely accused of what though? Because if you are in a group of 100-200 protesters and declare yourself as a fascist, there's not much to be falsely accused of. That does NOT condone violence of course, and I HATE victim blaming... but maybe don't do that? Police presence does not prevent that from happening either.

I still think the best way to de-escalate the violence is to lower police presence. There have been huge marches where the cops show up, and nothing happens at all. People sing, put up signs, make their demands, maybe rough up some MTR equipment, and move on to the next day.

They're NOT going to stop this in the next 20 years, unless the demands are met, so why not try something different? Things have only gotten worse over the last 4 months, so obviously what they're doing is not working.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StylinRed (Post 8961507)

Yeah I agree I just hope ya didn't think that the term was racist in itself

Yeah context matters. If someone said to me "Haha you laowai, been living in China for 12 years and your chinese still sucks" I would laugh it off. If someone calls me a "fucking laowai" and degrades me for sharing a post about China.. Like I said that's pretty much pure hatred induced racism and doesn't belong here.

Again I hope we can move on from it and get along. I know most people here aren't racist, and maybe that guy is just frustrated for seeing "outsider" opinions going against his own patriotism so strongly. Doesn't matter

Cop threatening to shoot a journalist

Lost cause. I’ve said it from the get go. Completely and utterly pointless without popular Chinese support of the mainlanders. Nobody intentionally is going to give a shit because economies are too interdependent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StylinRed (Post 8961478)

They are wantonly destroying the city, and attacking police viciously, they aren't protesting, these are just groups of anarchists hiding within peaceful protesters.

Do you believe it is possible that the "anarchists" are simply bad actors working under the direction of the PRC sent out to disturb the peace and justify the inevitable military response?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp (Post 8961503)

Protesters are targeting 3 things with their destruction:

-Police and police property
-Confirmed fascists and their property (including government facilities - MTR stations)
-Triads and their property

No members of the public are in any danger from the protesters, unless they declare themselves as fascists. Being a fascist in a liberal revolution, of course you're going to be targeted. This protest has been extremely non violent in terms of surrounding property and random citizens. The only stores th at get vandalized are fascists, the only cars that get vandalised are people who try to run over protesters.

When someone declares themselves as fascist publicly (such as Maxim's and Yoshinoya) they are declaring war on the protesters... So their property gets targeted. Not the employees, mind you, most of whom are definitely supporting the movement as average citizens.

When triads go out to attack people, they are going to fight back.

When police go out to attack people, they are going to fight back. Remember, this isn't Canada or UK where the police are still considered civil servants that follow the rule of law. Right or wrong, I'm not one to judge, but they are considered terrorists who are out to injure/degrade/sexually assault citizens. They collude with triads to harm citizens. There are new cases every day of all this happening.

So what's the solution? When the police deliberately call an assembly illegal, in order to be able to arrest people, all it does is ensure only the most extreme protesters show up. They aren't preventing any vandalism from happening. And again, there's no violence against citizens, so they aren't preventing that either.

All they're doing is going out there to crack skulls, tear gas, pepper spray, dye water canons, and in turn they get ganged up on when separated from their ranks. And from there, they escalate it to using live rounds on people.

Obviously the police aren't accomplishing anything in terms of lowering violence, preventing vandalism to fascist property, or even huge marches. All they're doing is providing targets for violence, and now putting peoples' lives at risk since they started using live rounds.

My solution, at least they should CONSIDER, just don't go out at all when there's a protest. Let the protesters do their march, don't show up. People will go home, don't show up. Some people will stay really late, looking for a fight. They may even destroy fascist and government property. Don't show up. Remember, they're going to do this anyway. They'll leave eventually. No cops get poked with poles, no protesters get shot or beaten. Some fascist property gets their windows broken and spray painted (which happens anyway). Much more peaceful in my opinion.

Shit, I don't even know where to start. I do notice the trend that violence usually escalates on the weekend and it's more peaceful during the week. lol

I'll show how peaceful these protesters are.

https://twitter.com/j1mmyc8an/status...675723264?s=20

Damaging property here.

https://twitter.com/liamstone_19/sta...691433472?s=20

Breaking into the MTR train control room? You're literally putting HK citizens in danger.

https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1...190961157?s=20

Beating up one old man? I don't care what you represent but this is stupid. How do you expect to have democracy when you can only react like this when people disagree with you?

https://twitter.com/rthk_enews/statu...146376704?s=20

Please try attacking a police officer like this anywhere else in the world while trying to make arrest and not be shot.

https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1...634360323?s=20

Mandarin = bad?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...kong-1.5296008

How about this blogger from Toronto? Guy posted something that's not agreeable by the mob and he got death threats?

It's really sad to see HK like this. I truly believe both sides are wrong on this and certain folks from both sides has crossed the line. That being said why are there so much support from the city still?

https://twitter.com/RyanMcManimie/st...444633601?s=20

This thread on Twitter sort of explains the past 20 odd years since the handover and how HK people lived.

The longer this protest goes and the more violent it goes, there will never be democracy in HK. That's just my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonturbo (Post 8961513)

Do you believe it is possible that the "anarchists" are simply bad actors working under the direction of the PRC sent out to disturb the peace and justify the inevitable military response?

100%

Quote:

Originally Posted by highfive (Post 8961514)

The longer this protest goes and the more violent it goes, there will never be democracy in HK. That's just my opinion.

I think that's China's plan all along. Once they take HK, they'll move onto Taiwan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp (Post 8961498)

There's not many people here, so racism really stands out. PS Don't be mad because a white guy knows more about China than you do LUL

Calling you a foreigner that knows nothing is not racism...Again...you’re acting exactly the same way as the people that you apparent despise....

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonturbo (Post 8961513)

Do you believe it is possible that the "anarchists" are simply bad actors working under the direction of the PRC sent out to disturb the peace and justify the inevitable military response?

There have been cases of apparent police being the ones causing much of the damage to people and MTR stations.

For instance, some protesters committing vandalism were later recorded opening police car doors with keys. Others have been caught using police issued telescopic batons (which in HK are as hard to find as guns apparently). It's possible that they killed some cops and stole their keys and batons, or had keys cut and batons smuggled in from china, but IMO it's more likely that they were just police acting as agents provocateur, something that the police themselves have admitted to (some of them make arrests as well, dressed as protesters. BTW these are often the most violent arrests we see)

A less reliable piece of evidence are the blinking lights on helmets and backpacks... From the very beginning, the undercover police would have blinking lights on their helmets or backpacks, to make sure they can identify themselves from actual protesters. Many, if not most of the protesters we've seen doing a lot of vandalism and molotov throwing have had blinking lights on their backpacks. Now it's possible that the vandalists are also using blinking lights for some other reason. Or it's possible that they're police who still need to be identifiable. You'd say anyone with a brain would remove the lights first, but that's dangerous (and also we already know the police commanders are practically inept) So who knows?

As for that collection of anti-protester tweets...

If you want to go out and declare yourself as a fascist and pick fights during a revolution, again not victim blaming, but that's the risk you take for wanting to get your point of view across. There may be a better time or place to do so. Others are stuff we've seen - protesters attacking terrorists (in their view), trying to prevent arrests, destroying fascist/government property, etc, and opening an MTR emergency door.

That "vlogger" was asking for exactly what he got, nothing more, nothing less. His intent was to try to get some provocative footage of himself being attacked by either side, in order to promote his youtube page (he posted it ALL OVER reddit). It backfired on him, and I don't have any sympathy (despite the actual footage being high quality and interesting)

But yeah, there are dumb and violent protesters, and dumb and violent fascists. The main difference being, one side is fascist...

Quote:

Originally Posted by fetched (Post 8961519)

Calling you a foreigner that knows nothing is not racism...Again...you’re acting exactly the same way as the people that you apparent despise....

I don't despise anyone, except racists and Carrie Lam Kappa

Quote:

Originally Posted by fetched (Post 8961526)

yet we got a laowai that’s been in HK for 12 years and have not integrated at all into the local culture....

Is that the culture of barbarism (Protesters) or authoritarianism (Police/PRC)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by StylinRed (Post 8961489)

A sign of innovation of a nation is the number of patents filed, and China files twice as many as the US. Granted that's not the greatest measure, as there are many things to consider when it comes to patents, like the quality of them, if they're actual new inventions, or merely slight changes to what's already made, etc, etc, but still, it's a sign that the engine is churning

Patents have nothing to do with innovation. It's merely a protection against others with regard to an idea.

What I was referring is about the freedom of academics, which is among one of the freedom not given to Chinese citizens.

In China, when it comes to research topics, it's always about the purpose or the benefit of such research. Anything without a clear sign of such is canned immediately.

The word compassion covers many different fields. And in academic, it's one of the clear examples. Very often, you'd see research cost millions of dollars in US institutions that serves nothing more than a stepstone of something potentially greater. That "greater" thing is NOT guaranteed. It only serves as a guideline to future research directions. American academics dominate in many fields because they can tolerate and even promote such behaviour, that's why they have tenure and offer many academic/research freedom to their fellows. No agenda, and no limit except certain conducts and codes they must obey and follow through. If things don't work out, well... at least they know that this is not a direction to go in the future. And that is what research is all about... trial and errors. Failures are taken as a simple part of the road.

And FAILURE is what the Chinese society... because of CCP's agenda cannot tolerate. They see failure as a sign of weakness. Thus everything about China has to be succesful, great and look good. How many times have we heard a major incident happens in China and gets completely cover up... when there's no reason to cover it up at all! Oh wait... because something bad happening in China under the leadership of CCP is IMPOSSIBLE... it's always someone else. HK protest is because of the West is trying to fuck China.

Why can't they simply discuss WHY THE FUCK HK, under CCP's leadership, came to this??? Maybe one country, two system doesn't really work? Maybe it needs some adjustments? Nop... it can't be... anything CCP does is perfect and Xi, along with members of the politburo are GODS... they don't make mistakes!

China wonders why they can't make friends and all the "allies" are craphole quasi-authoritarian countries like North Korea, Iran et al... they need to start question themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hehe (Post 8961488)

The notion of being "brainwashed" in China is not about to think in a particular way. Quite contrary... it's about NOT to think in a particular way.

The whole education system, as well as society as a whole, is to have a moral value of not to question. They don't promote (and dare I say they even discourage) critical thinking, freedom of many kinds and even selfism.

It's all about the GREATER GOOD, the country and recently, the CCP.

This creates huge social problems where people care NOTHING but money and power. There is no compassion for others. One just keeps it to him/herself.

There is a REASON why with all the competition (academically) in their education system (my son is scratching his balls everyday when he gets home from schools, my friend's kid, also in grade 2 like my son studies everyday until midnight) and YET very few, if any, major breakthroughs/innovations in science come from China. Because academias can't think by themselves. Everything is about what their boss/upper authorities want to see/hear them do.

Money doesn't buy one's happiness... and to an extent, also doesn't measure the success of one. Nevertheless, that's not the case in China.

You are absolutely correct that they are all about "the greater good". Although I would submit that it is a cultural difference rather than "brainwashing". They are willing to submit to something different than us, is that brainwashing?

Chinese culture historically has always been about "the greater good". We are not OK to sacrificing the "self" for the greater good, nothing wrong with that. They are OK to, nothing wrong with that either.

It is cultural difference that people just need to accept. One isn't superior to the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonturbo (Post 8961513)

Do you believe it is possible that the "anarchists" are simply bad actors working under the direction of the PRC sent out to disturb the peace and justify the inevitable military response?

I don't want to delve into conspiracy theories, but if it was proven that there were foreign actors, perpetuating the violence/protests, from say the PRC, KMT, US, HKPF, it wouldn't blow my mind.

However to try and suggest the makeup of these anarchists are all foreign actors, is a bit much.

What we know for certain, is there are a lot of angry, violent, students/citizens, who have been caught red handed, and they have an immense amount of support for their actions from protesters, who watch on the sidelines, and on protester forums like LIHKG, r/hongkong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hehe (Post 8961533)

Patents have nothing to do with innovation. It's merely a protection against others with regard to an idea.

Yes it does... It's one of the hard data indicators,another being investment into R&D, and to look at the desire for a country to be innovative, investment into education is also considered. There are many different methods used to rank innovation though, it's why different organizations, articles, etc may have vastly different results when ranking countries

But like I said there are a lot of issues with patents alone, such as the quality of the patented idea, do they lead to actual new inventions, or are they just incremental advances/adjustments in designs, etc etc

It's not the best indicator, but it shows that they're working on it.

As for your point about tenure, and researchers being allowed to innovate freely, you're right, but China doesn't have the luxury of these other countries to innovate in a broad spectrum, and allow researchers to just 'have at it' as they're playing catchup here

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...ing-innovative

https://chinapower.csis.org/
csis articles are a good read

Lunchtime protest in Central

Regular every day people out in support of the cause still, despite what happened yesterday. They may not condone actions against police and property, but they definitely still want their 5 demands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derpdidoo (Post 8961474)

I don't think it's a matter of brainwashing, but instead mainlanders living in a constant state of fear of falling into the hands of China's arbitrary judiciary system where the courts are subordinate to the communist party. Imagine being constantly monitored and ranked on a social credit system, living in fear of being blacklisted having your life ruined or thrown in jail

i think you just described 0.05% of the mainland chinese population.

Interesting twitter thread here. You can read it all on one page here

Quote:

Originally Posted by fetched (Post 8961526)

yet we got a laowai that’s been in HK for 12 years and have not integrated at all into the local culture....

Sorry. Hong Kong culture doesn't call foreigners laowai.

Plus we have mainlanders born in HK and they don't speak a speck of cantonese. So what? There's plenty of mainlanders who bought up the luxury apartments where I'm renting and they run around speaking mandarin. So what?

Hell you have mainlanders who lived for decades in Canada who can't speak any english. So what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by G0rilla (Post 8961561)

https://mobile.twitter.com/yskevinhu...666471424?s=19

Aberdeen station

I really hope this vid was sent to RCMP and immigration office. Time to revoke these cunts visas and send them back to their beloved country. We dont need these little shits here.

the 90s punk band removed some post-its from a transit station

i dont agree with it but that's not grounds for deportation

Big Trouble in Little China