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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
The fuck are you talking about. We left for Canada when I was 6 years old. You act like I had a choice in the matter. I grew up here, obviously I’m Canadian and my life is here. But I don’t go around shitting on where I came from.
You/your family had the blessing of moving to Canada. Where human rights and people's opinion actually means a damn.
And it's not about shitting the place you came from, but rather pointing out what was wrong... wait, let's rephrase that... CAN BE DONE BETTER. Again... it's NOT about SHITTING China, but about the fact that by recognizing there are better ways, the society as a whole CAN BE BETTER.
The fact is that HK gov't, under the guidance of CCP don't ever want to recognize that things could have been better if done differently. Nop... they insist that they've done what's best for its people and they are not budging on the protesters' demands other than withdrawing the bill.
What message does this send to HK people? That it's the CCP way or the highway. And yet the Sino-Brit accord clearly stated that their "way" is guaranteed for 50yrs.
And when a country as big and influential like China isn't willing to live up to its words, how does China expect the rest of the world to keep up with theirs? And do we, as citizens of this world really want a world where accords, agreements and contracts means jackshit?
If we don't, then I think anyone should support HK and ask China to keep its words as it originally agreed.
Police vehicle (presumably being driven by a police officer) runs red light, tries to run over a crowd of protesters, circles around trying to hit anyone they can
I'm a huge basketball fan, so I'm quite... disturbed and sad when James Harden apologizes for the comment the Rockets GM made?
The apology statement felt like it was only issued soley because China is one of their biggest market right now. So essentially, bowing to where the money is at.
I'm a Chinese born in Hong Kong, with parents born in China, and admist all this, I started wondering to myself, what does someone mean when they're proud that they're "X" ethinicty?
I love my Chinese heritage. I love Chinese culture. I shouldn't be ashamed that I'm born a Chinese, yet there shouldn't be anything I should be proud of either. Should I be proud that I have black hair while other ethnicity doesn't? Should I be proud that I have yellow skin while another ethnicity have dark skin? No. Just like I have no reason to be proud of how tall I am, or how I look, or how much wealth my parents I have.
So when you say you're proud of a certain nationality, you aren't really saying you love the culture heritage, but rather, you're proud of the values they uphold, and the things they have done today and in the past.
We are all just human beings, so why should I be proud that I'm a Chinese, and in so saying, that I'm glad I'm not European or etc?
Dude you serious ? Nothing to be proud of ? Our people have accomplished a lot from invention of the compass and gunpowder to independently putting a guy in space and landing on the far side of the moon. We as a people have thrived and there are 1.3 billion of us in this world (for good or bad). We had a stable and homogeneous society for centuries (different dynasties) and our collective histories is one of the longest and richest in the world. How can you not be proud to be Chinese ? Especially now that we haven gained back our global presence and we aren’t seen as some backwater 3rd world country but instead a economic powerhouse that can stand hand in hand with other world nations.
Things I don’t like ? We ruined our environment and social decency in the blatant pursuit of money. 3 gourgs dam comes to mind. Same with the people and how China is giving everyone a social score (lawl) to counter act all this materialism. Interesting and very Orwellian 1984 practices but flawed in execution.
I've said it before: China is am amazing wonderful country, with tons of wonderful people. Please show your love the country of China, I love it too.
The problem is, nationalism was essentially replaced by the Party in the 1950's. They took over the identity and culture of "China", and replaced it with their own, and will fight against any actual portrayal of China that doesn't include them. Even if you think you are supporting China by waving the PRC flag, you are actually supporting the fascist communist party.
That's why I keep saying, if you REALLY love China, and you should, then you should be on the HKers side. Fight AGAINST the tyranny they have dumped onto your amazing country. Don't wave the party flag, wave a flag of peace and freedom. Don't yell and bitch at HK people and throw coins at them; they will be right there, fighting alongside YOU if you want. Join them. Now's your chance. You might end up being on "the wrong side of history" if you get run over by a Chinese tank, but at least you will ACTUALLY be showing national pride, not ignorant support of a tyrannical dictatorship. Yes they pulled you out of an economic quagmire. Thanks for that. Now that economic strength is being used to suppress you as much as ever.
I've said it before: China is am amazing wonderful country, with tons of wonderful people. Please show your love the country of China, I love it too.
The problem is, nationalism was essentially replaced by the Party in the 1950's. They took over the identity and culture of "China", and replaced it with their own, and will fight against any actual portrayal of China that doesn't include them. Even if you think you are supporting China by waving the PRC flag, you are actually supporting the fascist communist party.
That's why I keep saying, if you REALLY love China, and you should, then you should be on the HKers side. Fight AGAINST the tyranny they have dumped onto your amazing country. Don't wave the party flag, wave a flag of peace and freedom. Don't yell and bitch at HK people and throw coins at them; they will be right there, fighting alongside YOU if you want. Join them. Now's your chance. You might end up being on "the wrong side of history" if you get run over by a Chinese tank, but at least you will ACTUALLY be showing national pride, not ignorant support of a tyrannical dictatorship. Yes they pulled you out of an economic quagmire. Thanks for that. Now that economic strength is being used to suppress you as much as ever.
No. This isn’t the time for an active revolution. Millions will suffer and for what ? So we can have a potentially dysfunctional democracy that serves only 50 percent of its people ? China has been ruled under a strong and single governance for almost all of its history. The CCP is more similar to our old imperial system (especially with Pooh) than whatever Marx envisioned. Until majority of the Chinese population can collectively support a change in government , this blip isn’t a good enough reason to cause suffering for the rest of China.
Chinese population isn’t stupid, when the time comes there will be change and change for the better. I’m hoping it’ll go more in the ways of the old ussr and eventually it’ll become so big and bloated it’ll just break itself apart. That or a single cause that the entire population can rally behind.
You know why this Hong Kong shit won’t work? It’s because it’s all me me me. Protect me, protect my freedoms, protect my way of life , wahhhh. All the while the average honger is rich and well off compared to mainlanders. This won’t be a cause mainlanders can rally behind.
Rockets GM now being spammed by Chinese posts celebrating 9/11 and Pearl Harbor.
Wonder how long until we start getting targeted like Muslims were in Western countries. Basically all of the NBA subreddit is filled with anti-China posts by people who previously couldn’t give two shits about China before this controversy. Good job China.
Little grey-haired cop walks into a citizen who doesn't move, angrily shoves him for not moving. When everyone around calls him out, he immediately went for his gun while other cops sprayed everyone with pepper spray. Thankfully he holstered the gun right away instead of shooting people
NY Times once again with an amazing summary of all the major events, in a well presented timeline format. Share this link with people who haven't been following since day 1. I've seen people ask for summaries many times:
doubt there will be anything meaningful to come from the crackdowns from external entities
many will have sympathy for peaceful protest for democracy, but when push comes to shove, THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS!
"T&P" tweets can be effective though. Look at how much awareness came up with NBA fans after the Rockets GM made a simple "T&P" tweet.
The world has to stand against tyranny, and it should be made apparent in all sectors including mainstream media and sports. Now a bunch of people who didn't even think of it before sees how hypocritical and gross the NBA and even its players are when it comes to this.
It's not a huge thing, but everything counts for a bit I think
It's a little rich how those who have benefited, directly or indirectly, from the CCP are sitting here enjoying the freedoms and liberties of a democratic country and shit on other people's fight for freedom/democracy, when their own people (regardless of whether you define it by ethnicity or nationality) are suffering back home.
This guy's post on reddit lists off a few things that the west may not be familiar with. I quoted the post, but his actual post has links if you want to read more about it.
This is another step in China's never-ending campaign to annihilate human rights:
• Hundreds of human rights lawyers (not even dissidents, just the LAWYERS who defended people) were snatched by gestapo all over China in what is known as the 709 Crackdown.
• One of those lawyers, Wang Quanzhang was sentenced to 4.5 years for "subversion of state power". But that's not enough. China actually went after Wang's 6-year-old son, forcing him out of his school and banning any other school from taking him in.
• A dissident, [Wang Bingzhang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Bingzhang_(dissident)) was kidnapped by Chinese agents in Vietnam and sentenced to life in prison after a closed trial that lasted 1 day.
• A man wore a t-shirt with the word "Xitler" on it and was disappeared. Eventually he was tried for "subversion of state power" while barred from meeting with lawyers
• Another man, Wang Meiyu hold up a placard calling for Xi’s resignation & democracy. He was arrested for "picking quarrels”. He ended up dead in custody.
• A woman live streamed herself splashing ink on a Xi poster. She was disappeared. Her last social media update: "Right now there are a group of people wearing uniforms outside my door. I’ll go out after I change my clothes. I did not commit a crime. The people and groups that hurt me are the ones who are guilty". Later on there was report of her being sent to a psychiatric hospital
• After the ink-splash woman's disappearance her father made a series of broadcast to call attention to her plight. He ended up getting taken away by the police in the middle of a live stream
• 5 people associated with a Hong Kong bookstore that sold titles such as "Xi Jinping and His Six Women" were disappeared. Only one managed to escape back to HK. He held a press briefing to tell the world about his kidnapping by China. He's now in exile in Taiwan. The other 4 are still somewhere in China.
And, of course
• 1.5 million Uyghurs rounded up in concentration camps
• Genocide through forced abortions on Uyghur women
• Sexual torture of Uyghur women such as rape & rubbing intimate parts with chili paste.
• Leaked footage of a large number of blindfolded Uyghurs shackled together
• A Canadian journalist wanted to debunk reports of Chinese anti-Muslim repression so he went on a stage-managed show tour put on by China. That means he only saw a fake Potemkin village that China actually thought was acceptable by Western standard. But the brutality of even this fake Potemkin village stunned him. Now imagine what's really happening in the real concentration camps where millions of Uyghurs are being held. Imagine how bad the true situation is.
• Using minorities & political prisoners as free organ farms. A doctor's eye witness account: 'The prisoner was brought in, tied hand and foot, but very much alive. The army doctor in charge sliced him open from chest to belly button and exposed his two kidneys. Then the doctor ordered Zheng to remove the man’s eyeballs. Hearing that, the dying prisoner gave him a look of sheer terror, and Zheng froze. “I can’t do it,” he told the doctor, who then quickly scooped out the man’s eyeballs himself.'
• Call for retraction of 400 Chinese scientific papers amid fears organs came from Chinese prisoners
• 15 Chinese studies retracted due to fears they used Chinese prisoners' organs
• Cultural genocide (and organ harvests, of course). A uyghur's testimony: "First, children were stopped from learning about the Quran, then from going to mosques. It was followed by bans on ramadan, growing beards, giving Islamic names to your baby, etc. Then our language was attacked – we didn’t get jobs if we didn’t know Mandarin. Our passports were collected, we were told to spy on each other, innocent Uyghur prisoners were killed for organ harvesting"
• China is moving beyond Uyghur and cracking down on its model minority Hui Muslim. 'Afraid We Will Become The Next Xinjiang': China's Hui Muslims Face Crackdown: "The same restrictions that preceded the Xinjiang crackdown on Uighur Muslims are now appearing in Hui-dominated regions. Hui mosques have been forcibly renovated or shuttered, schools demolished, and religious community leaders imprisoned. Hui who have traveled internationally are increasingly detained or sent to reeducation facilities in Xinjiang."
Funny how the pro-China side never talks about these issues. Those who have the luxury of living here obviously have access to this information, whether it's through the internet or the news. They're not stupid. Clearly, they know about it. So what is it... fear of reprisal/consequences? or apathy because they're not the ones personally suffering?
A reasonable person can acknowledge that these things are wrong, and therefore, should be able to understand why people want to fight for democracy. You don't have to support them, but what is there to gain by shitting on them?
I like to think of this situation like the monkey experiment. The scientists running the water are China, the banana is democracy, and the monkeys are the people. HK is the current monkey trying to climb the ladder, while all the other monkeys are trying to stop him, even though they can't explain why.
No. This isn’t the time for an active revolution. Millions will suffer and for what ? So we can have a potentially dysfunctional democracy that serves only 50 percent of its people ? China has been ruled under a strong and single governance for almost all of its history. The CCP is more similar to our old imperial system (especially with Pooh) than whatever Marx envisioned. Until majority of the Chinese population can collectively support a change in government , this blip isn’t a good enough reason to cause suffering for the rest of China.
Chinese population isn’t stupid, when the time comes there will be change and change for the better. I’m hoping it’ll go more in the ways of the old ussr and eventually it’ll become so big and bloated it’ll just break itself apart. That or a single cause that the entire population can rally behind.
You know why this Hong Kong shit won’t work? It’s because it’s all me me me. Protect me, protect my freedoms, protect my way of life , wahhhh. All the while the average honger is rich and well off compared to mainlanders. This won’t be a cause mainlanders can rally behind.
^This. Hong Kong is fighting their rights and what was promised to them from CCP.
But this whole movement never gave two shit about mainlanders. There was some weak effort in the very beginning to appeal to mainlanders, but not because they actually care for them. They never wanted to learn why mainlander haven't revolt against their government, they don't want to hear that CCP upheld their promise on the mainland side to give the people economic prosperity. They dont want to acknowledge that mainlander are not actually the backward brainwash zombie honger think they are.
You might not care for the Chinese flag, but billion of people in China has living and dead relative that actually did fight for the flag and sacrifice for their new China. CCP gave the Chinese people what they wanted, stability prosperity and a say on an international stage. CCP hasn't been good to you but CCP has been good to billions of other Chinese.
The appeal to mainland was never about inclusion and wanting the brother and sister on the other side the join their fight. It is so honger can go and tell the whole world "look how barbaric the other side is for not joining our righteous fight".
Money is not the be all end all just like democracy is not the answer to every society problem. When 35% of your city GDP comes from 10 billionaires that controls the city's every resource. Something is seriously wrong with the society. People of Hong Kong is hopeless and angry, can't blame honger's emotion towards their SAR government.
But at the end of the day, honger are fighting for something that was promise but never deliver to them amidst a shit load of other societal problem. Yes Mainlanders dont feel your pain because they are genuinely quite happy with CCP's delivery of their promise for them and most important they dont face the same societal problem that Hong Kong does. And how do you expect any mainlander to join your fight after seeing the carnage on anyone suspected to be "chinazi"?
Singapore a place consisting of mostly ethnic Chinese has been living in a semi dictatorship under the guise of democracy for quite some time now. Why haven't they revolt against their government? Why haven't they demand REAL democracy?
This sounds crazy but, could it be because they are genuinely happy with stability and prosperity? I mean these guys have complete access to the internet, they know their "democratic" government is nothing but a guise.
Singapore horse whip people that chew gum in public, most of their law is far more authoritarian than China. Yet there is no cry for democracy and the current governmental structure is not in danger of being toppled.
Baffling isn't it that democracy is not the answer to every problem.
Stand for what you believe in but dont be surprise when you claim superior because of "free thought" and put down a whole population and that population doesn't support your cause.
No. This isn’t the time for an active revolution. Millions will suffer and for what ? So we can have a potentially dysfunctional democracy that serves only 50 percent of its people ? China has been ruled under a strong and single governance for almost all of its history. The CCP is more similar to our old imperial system (especially with Pooh) than whatever Marx envisioned. Until majority of the Chinese population can collectively support a change in government , this blip isn’t a good enough reason to cause suffering for the rest of China.
Chinese population isn’t stupid, when the time comes there will be change and change for the better. I’m hoping it’ll go more in the ways of the old ussr and eventually it’ll become so big and bloated it’ll just break itself apart. That or a single cause that the entire population can rally behind.
You know why this Hong Kong shit won’t work? It’s because it’s all me me me. Protect me, protect my freedoms, protect my way of life , wahhhh. All the while the average honger is rich and well off compared to mainlanders. This won’t be a cause mainlanders can rally behind.
Not sure if serious...
You'd rather condone all the human right abuse currently going on in China (yeah yeah... "alleged") all for the sake of what? A fake prosperity where money means everything and gov't officials or specifically the politburos are gods?
Rome isn't built in a day. If China goes democratic... sure it would have its bumps along the road, but at LEAST there would be some degree of accountability. Right now... anything that the CCP does is RIGHT. PERIOD. It's not subject to questioning even when something clearly goes wrong. It's about giving a way for China really lives up to its name "People's Republic of China". Right now... there isn't much people in the country's decision. Whatever Xi says, counts. No if or buts... it's JUST THE WAY IT IS.
I'm not saying that by going democratic, China would instantly covert into advanced democratic socialism a la Norway/Sweden... etc. But by going little by little... say a roadmap of going fully democratic (say start with local reps, and finishing electing even the president at the end) in 20years, that'd be returning right to the people.
By just keep saying that Chinese population isn't ready for full democracy and therefore not giving ANY democracy whatsoever... when the fuck do you expect people to be ready? It's like if you never let an apprentice to get any hands-on experience, of course you can't expect it to be a fully independent contractor in the future.
And about the whole NBA thing... I am all in support of freedom of speech. Not just that... we shouldn't be kowtowing to an authoritarian for what? Economic benefits? Where does it end? It's the same argument people used that by "ending" slavery, the economy would collapse because there would no longer be cheap labours that subject to no standard at all. Is that a right thing looking retrospectively?
It's a little rich how those who have benefited, directly or indirectly, from the CCP are sitting here enjoying the freedoms and liberties of a democratic country and shit on other people's fight for freedom/democracy, when their own people (regardless of whether you define it by ethnicity or nationality) are suffering back home.
This guy's post on reddit lists off a few things that the west may not be familiar with. I quoted the post, but his actual post has links if you want to read more about it.
Funny how the pro-China side never talks about these issues. Those who have the luxury of living here obviously have access to this information, whether it's through the internet or the news. They're not stupid. Clearly, they know about it. So what is it... fear of reprisal/consequences? or apathy because they're not the ones personally suffering?
A reasonable person can acknowledge that these things are wrong, and therefore, should be able to understand why people want to fight for democracy. You don't have to support them, but what is there to gain by shitting on them?
I like to think of this situation like the monkey experiment. The scientists running the water are China, the banana is democracy, and the monkeys are the people. HK is the current monkey trying to climb the ladder, while all the other monkeys are trying to stop him, even though they can't explain why.
I think that a lot of us on this board are for democracy. I don't think anyone here actually supports communist ideals. What many of us are against is the needless violent actions on the streets impacting innocent people because it is for a just cause. Complete shutdown of MTR stations, complete blockages of roads. Like the lady in the video on the previous page said... People need to go home. The issue that I see still is that it's a black/white, us/them, either you're with us 100% or you're supporting a tyrannical government. There are people that say the mainlanders should be with us. Yet you can see that there is still the thought at the back of people's minds that the mainlanders are looked down upon. How can they be supportive of people condescending them? The things you've mentioned about China are just surfacing now. Imagine all the other things that are hidden from us. As someone mentioned on the previous page, China could be letting the HK issue carry on to mask other issues going on.
You'd rather condone all the human right abuse currently going on in China (yeah yeah... "alleged") all for the sake of what? A fake prosperity where money means everything and gov't officials or specifically the politburos are gods?
Rome isn't built in a day. If China goes democratic... sure it would have its bumps along the road, but at LEAST there would be some degree of accountability. Right now... anything that the CCP does is RIGHT. PERIOD. It's not subject to questioning even when something clearly goes wrong. It's about giving a way for China really lives up to its name "People's Republic of China". Right now... there isn't much people in the country's decision. Whatever Xi says, counts. No if or buts... it's JUST THE WAY IT IS.
I'm not saying that by going democratic, China would instantly covert into advanced democratic socialism a la Norway/Sweden... etc. But by going little by little... say a roadmap of going fully democratic (say start with local reps, and finishing electing even the president at the end) in 20years, that'd be returning right to the people.
By just keep saying that Chinese population isn't ready for full democracy and therefore not giving ANY democracy whatsoever... when the fuck do you expect people to be ready? It's like if you never let an apprentice to get any hands-on experience, of course you can't expect it to be a fully independent contractor in the future.
And about the whole NBA thing... I am all in support of freedom of speech. Not just that... we shouldn't be kowtowing to an authoritarian for what? Economic benefits? Where does it end? It's the same argument people used that by "ending" slavery, the economy would collapse because there would no longer be cheap labours that subject to no standard at all. Is that a right thing looking retrospectively?
You can't have your god damn democracy without bloodshed. That's just the fact. The CCP won't give it up unless you start wwiii. You rather have our brothers and sisters kill each other so we can have a multi party system and supposed freedoms ? Sure you can criticize the government after all thedeath and destruction but is that worth destroying and dismantling all of this we have in place ? Look at Iraq. You topple a dictator and what did you get ?
Is Iraq the model middle Eastern State right now ?
You guys talk like democracy will fix all issues. It won't. Under a democratic system those ughurs will still get outvoted by the Han Chinese and their voices will remain unheard and not presented. Same goes with Tibet. You'll never be able to outvoted that kind of majority.
I think that a lot of us on this board are for democracy. I don't think anyone here actually supports communist ideals. What many of us are against is the needless violent actions on the streets impacting innocent people because it is for a just cause. Complete shutdown of MTR stations, complete blockages of roads. Like the lady in the video on the previous page said... People need to go home.
Let me ask you a question. Do you think the two million peaceful demonstrators or the current violence caused the government to fully withdraw the legislation?
Do you think peaceful demonstrations (which are constantly being banned) or continued violence will lead the government to start an independent inquiry into police brutality?
The fuck are you talking about. We left for Canada when I was 6 years old. You act like I had a choice in the matter. I grew up here, obviously I’m Canadian and my life is here. But I don’t go around shitting on where I came from.
You do have a choice. You can renounce your Canadian citizenship and reclaim your Chinese love and pride. Hell, I'll buy you a one way business class ticket to China to help you save expenses.
Don't tell me with this deal of a lifetime, you're going to leave your beloved homeland hanging?
Let me ask you a question. Do you think the two million peaceful demonstrators or the current violence caused the government to fully withdraw the legislation?
Do you think peaceful demonstrations (which are constantly being banned) or continued violence will lead the government to start an independent inquiry into police brutality?
I would say that the reasoning for absolute "withdrawal" of the extradition bill was pressure on Carrie Lam from China to calm the protests that occurred daily. Keeping in mind that Carrie Lam already said the bill was "officially dead" she just refused to use the word withdrawn because of herself being stubborn and to put on an image of the Iron Lady.
For your other question. I do not believe fighting fire with literal fire would lead the government to create an inquiry into police brutality. In fact I would believe it would hurt the very cause the protesters are trying to make.
Imagine seeing police officers peppered with bricks and getting Molotovs thrown at them. Then you see the protesters getting arrested. People would assume that the force was necessary to detain them. (note that I personally do not support the excessive force used in many circumstances in HK)
Buy me a ticket! Id love to go on vacation for a while.
By the way what are you hongers doing on a Vancouver car forum anyways !? You don't even live here anymore.
Show me your proof of renunciation. My wallet is ready. Plus it would be safer for you to live in China as a non-canadian. Wouldnt want you to be Ms Meng's next hostage now would we.
Plus I've been on this forum since 2000 under a different name. It's almost like a second family to me.
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