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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Campaign to raise enough money to give away STAND WITH HONG KONG shirts to everyone in attendance at the opening NBA game in LA. They're at 150% of the $20K goal in one day, and I wonder if they raise enough money to do this at ALL the NBA games on opening night?
If China really has it figured out, why is no one immigrating there? Why do people from all over the world constantly immigrate to western countries? Surely, democracy is not the way of humanity...
There's a conspiracy theory going around that many (if not all) of the MTR station vandalism came from police agent provocateurs and not protesters. I pretty much dismissed the notion, but man there is more and more evidence coming out all the time that at least makes it worth investigating.
The main issue is that there is proven evidence that MTR stations were cleared out for at least an hour before any vandalism could have taken place. In the age of live streaming, you really can't hide it. If a stream is showing an undamaged MTR station being cleared out by police, and then shows nobody other than police in the stations after it closed, and then that station is vandalised, you really have to consider the possibility. Of course, it's possible that they got destroyed in the middle of the night after the police left.
But then there's footage like this, of "protesters" who made their way into stations, using the same flashlights the cops always use, and carrying what appears to be pepper spray
Still not convinced, but I definitely wouldn't' dismiss it as easily as I would when the stories first started coming. Or maybe these are protesters dressed as police, dressed as protesters. Or there are some police who are actually protesters. There is SO MUCH shitty "fake news" that you have to be really careful.
Campaign to raise enough money to give away STAND WITH HONG KONG shirts to everyone in attendance at the opening NBA game in LA. They're at 150% of the $20K goal in one day, and I wonder if they raise enough money to do this at ALL the NBA games on opening night?
The staple center will probably beef up their security gates and confiscate the t-shirts before going in.
I like to think of this situation like the monkey experiment. The scientists running the water are China, the banana is democracy, and the monkeys are the people. HK is the current monkey trying to climb the ladder, while all the other monkeys are trying to stop him, even though they can't explain why.
This is a dumb illustration. The scientists purposely create a negative effect on the action of taking the banana. The monkeys CORRECTLY stop each other from going to get it. They pass this on CORRECTLY, because if any of the new monkeys go up, they would still get the cold shower.
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I searched for truth, and all I found was You
There's a conspiracy theory going around that many (if not all) of the MTR station vandalism came from police agent provocateurs and not protesters. I pretty much dismissed the notion, but man there is more and more evidence coming out all the time that at least makes it worth investigating.
It's really hard to dismiss when you watch the streams and see this happening on the regular.
My problem with this is, the frontliners have made it their mandate to continuously attack the MTR; so what sympathy are people supposed to have when the police dress up as protestors and wreck it themselves? Even if the police is framing the protestors (which we can see the videos, its very possible they are), why does it matter? If anything the police are just doing more of their dirty work.
Frontliners need to take a more cohesive stance on this - you are either for the wrecking of the MTR or you aren't, or else it shouldn't matter who is doing it
It's really hard to dismiss when you watch the streams and see this happening on the regular.
My problem with this is, the frontliners have made it their mandate to continuously attack the MTR; so what sympathy are people supposed to have when the police dress up as protestors and wreck it themselves? Even if the police is framing the protestors (which we can see the videos, its very possible they are), why does it matter? If anything the police are just doing more of their dirty work.
Frontliners need to take a more cohesive stance on this - you are either for the wrecking of the MTR or you aren't, or else it shouldn't matter who is doing it
I've seen on lihkg that the protesters seem to be really reconsidering the level of destruction they do during protest. They seem to have figured out that agent provocateurs have been very active in promoting more intense vandalism (along with being out there to commit it) and riling people up. I think they want to take a step back. This also includes attacking people when defending themselves from those morons who come at them with knives and axes (and taxis). There was an incident last night, but the guy was disarmed, and they left him alone after that (as far as I can tell).
I know for sure they wrecked some of the MTR stations - for instance they ran a hose from a fire hydrant to the Wong Tai Sin MTR and flooded it. And tossing molotovs at an elevator in Mong Kok for instance. But did they do enough to force a total shutdown of the MTR?
Also MTR has changed the wording of their signs to specifically point out "vandalism" as being the cause for issues. Oh, and some of the machines with these out of order signs are actually still totally functional, just the screens are disabled (though the video doesn't show the machine from all angles, they definitely seem to be in fine working order)
HK Firefighters put out a video that is in favor of the protests. Th ey are frustrated by having police constantly blocking them from doing their jobs. Just yesterday, someone released an MRI of a protester's brain that was bashed in by cops, and there was a huge blood clot from the damage that needed surgery. Cops allegedly had kept him away from paramedics for 6 hours. Much longer and he'd be dead.
There are many horror stories that come out after the cameras are turned off, and even more that probably don't come out. I mean we see what they do when they know they are being filmed, can you imagine what they do when they're not?
Anyway, this has me very worried, because we saw what beijing did to the last public service (MTR) just for being neutral, not even in favor of the public...
HK Firefighters put out a video that is in favor of the protests. Th ey are frustrated by having police constantly blocking them from doing their jobs. Just yesterday, someone released an MRI of a protester's brain that was bashed in by cops, and there was a huge blood clot from the damage that needed surgery. Cops allegedly had kept him away from paramedics for 6 hours. Much longer and he'd be dead.
Skinny, thoughts on all these suicides/floating dead bodies in the river? Police really that brazen nowdays to just kill people and send the bodies out as a message? That would require a huge amount of police officers to be complete psychos right?
This is a dumb illustration. The scientists purposely create a negative effect on the action of taking the banana. The monkeys CORRECTLY stop each other from going to get it. They pass this on CORRECTLY, because if any of the new monkeys go up, they would still get the cold shower.
here's another example of this with no negative effect...and it's with a different type of monkey too.
If China really has it figured out, why is no one immigrating there? Why do people from all over the world constantly immigrate to western countries? Surely, democracy is not the way of humanity...
ever had to compete with 1.4B people?
ever had your lungs choking for air that isn't filled with crap?
Skinny, thoughts on all these suicides/floating dead bodies in the river? Police really that brazen nowdays to just kill people and send the bodies out as a message? That would require a huge amount of police officers to be complete psychos right?
The suicides are in line with the typical average number of suicides, think there may be a slight uptick, but in times of distress/unrest, depressed ppl are triggered
The idiots imagining police are hiding bodies with elaborate suicides are just a bit much
Are you fucking kidding me ? The hundreds and thousands of dead Chinese who fought forthe ccp and nationalists would like a word with you. The only reason Taiwan isn’t an integrated part of China today is because of the US containment doctrine and the fact that mao couldn’t row a god damn boat over. East and west Germany unification only happened because the ussr could no longer maintain itself. That’s the ideal situation to get rid of the ccp, it just happens naturally and the whole system implodes.
I love how pro hongers always end up with the argument That if you love it so much then go back home. Same be said for every ex pat or immigrant turned citizen. You guys say the same shit to all the East Indians Canadians who still love India ? Or is it possible that they can still love their home and adopted countries.
If you want to talk history, let's talk.
CCP stood put when KMT started fighting the Japanese, and after KMT lost much of its power by fighting the Japanese army, CCP then started the fight against KMT and had the audacity the claim that KMT started the civil war. KMT was the LEADING party back then while CCP was the rebels. What kind of leading party starts a Civil war? This is how CCP took over China from KMT.
East Germany's collapse was NOT because of lack of Russia's support. It was BECAUSE of the internal conflicts of strong opposition, particularly from the churches. If you are saying that because Gorbachev, which was seeking a full reform of East Germany (hence opposing sending troops to suppress East German protesters) a lack of support, then I can see where you were going with the "lack" of support.
Ultimately, it was the East Germans who began tearing down the wall and the leader of Christian Democrat, Maizière became the head of East German gov't and decided to unify with West Germany and NATO.
But enough of history lessons as it has nothing to do with it. We were discussing about the cost of transition from authoritarian/socialism to democracy.
Many socialism or authoritarian states transitioned to a full democratic because they had a visionary, Russia had Gobarchev, Taiwan had Ching-kuo Chiang and both had a relatively little conflict for the process. Taiwan went democratic in 1988 after a series of law changes paving the way necessary for a multi-party democratic system. There was no bloodshed, civil war or anything alike. It just flowed accordingly. Civil elections started taking places and the rest is history.
So no, don't come to me with the crap that democratization cause bloodshed. or chaos. It can be done and had been done many times peacefully. The only argument is that CCP is willing to sacrifice the freedom of billions of Chinese citizens for the sake and benefit of its own.
Thus, when discussing this topic, one have to be clear whether they are pro-China or pro-CCP. They are two totally different things. I'm perfectly fine with pro-China... but Pro-CCP absolutely disgusts me because they violate so many human rights all in the sake of what? "Harmony"? Fuck no... it's the only argument CCP has to stay in power and those who are in charge can continue benefit from it.
They are not doing this for the sake of Chinese citizens benefits. China's economy can continue to grow with a democratic system, but the only thing is now they ACTUALLY have to take people's voice into consideration and not doing whatever the fuck they feel like.
What they are doing now for China is not what's people in China wants... it's what CCP wants people in China to have.
If China really has it figured out, why is no one immigrating there? Why do people from all over the world constantly immigrate to western countries? Surely, democracy is not the way of humanity...
China does not encourage immigration, they have issue with population control as it is.
Their immigration process make it virtually impossible for anybody that wasn't born in China to get citizenship. Hell if you are born in China and you immigrated somewhere else and renouce your PRC citizenship it is almost impossible to get it back.
There are lots of expat from all over the world that lives in China, and yes some do come from western free and democracy countries. Stroll through Shanghai Downtown on a Friday night and you will see more Caucasians walking around than a regular day in Richmond. Some stay for business, some stay because they have a family in China now. Some stay just because they like the place.
This is not any different that any other countries. When you have a stable economic condition, people will come to seek whatever future they envision.
But it is very very hard for any non native born expat to receive a Chinese citizenship.
Sidney Rittenberg come to mind. An American that stayed in China after WW2 and become a senior member of the Communist party. He was right alongside Mao from the beginning, went thru the cultural revolution and was jailed twice on suspecion of him being a spy, oh the irony lol. He held high position within the communist party but in the end he never got a chinese citizenship.
Unlike Canada, China's does not offer an encouraging immigration policies. Those have have succesful immigrated to China, did not arrive with plans to immigrate. They all start with a short term visa or somesort thatn had to jump through a millions hoops if they do want to stay. The primary reason why I think most expat do not even try to get the Chinese citizenship is that it is hard to travel with one. There is much restriction when it comes to Visa. And they is really no issue to keep their original citizenship. That and many other benefits that comes with a western passport make it hard to give it up (single citizenship rule in China is pretty hard to circuvant). Unlike country that enourage immigration, there isn't really an active task force hunting down illegal immigrate in China. It is not too hard to overstay your official welcome and be perfectly fine as a gwailo in China.
We are thinking of immigration in the traditional western perspective, most people choose to immigrate to a place because they have done all the research and decided this is the place i want to make a future in.
Most people that ended up staying in China for long term or for good happens the other way around. Started with a short temporal trip, than found whatever reason it is that made them stay.
Either way, there are not alot of immigrates in China. But there are alot of expat that thought they were only going to pass by China for work or whatever and ended up staying for good, with or without an official citizenship.
This is a dumb illustration. The scientists purposely create a negative effect on the action of taking the banana. The monkeys CORRECTLY stop each other from going to get it. They pass this on CORRECTLY, because if any of the new monkeys go up, they would still get the cold shower.
obviously it's not an exact parallel. if that's your takeaway, you've missed the point.
Skinny, thoughts on all these suicides/floating dead bodies in the river? Police really that brazen nowdays to just kill people and send the bodies out as a message? That would require a huge amount of police officers to be complete psychos right?
My thoughts on that, and the reason I never brought it up here, is that HK has a shockingly high suicide rate (like 80 per month) and these fall within that range. If anything, I am amazed that there aren't more suicides. HK people, especially the youths, are being very strong during this, keeping each other motivated. Maybe if things get even worse, and more people lose hope, that will happen.
When has HKPD ever acted this way to HK civilians, before this whole mess? Definitely makes me think that theres only china cops out on the streets now. Who knows what they did, or moved HK cops to...
Just the tone and the way they yell...
When has HKPD ever acted this way to HK civilians, before this whole mess? Definitely makes me think that theres only china cops out on the streets now. Who knows what they did, or moved HK cops to...
Just the tone and the way they yell...
Never never never. HKers saw it as a privilege to have an awesome police force, unlike much of the rest of the world. Little did they know, things were changing behind the scenes that they wouldn't realize until they started speaking out against the CCP.
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obviously it's not an exact parallel. if that's your takeaway, you've missed the point.
