| threezero | 10-08-2019 07:19 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hehe
(Post 8962356)
If you want to talk history, let's talk.
CCP stood put when KMT started fighting the Japanese, and after KMT lost much of its power by fighting the Japanese army, CCP then started the fight against KMT and had the audacity the claim that KMT started the civil war. KMT was the LEADING party back then while CCP was the rebels. What kind of leading party starts a Civil war? This is how CCP took over China from KMT.
East Germany's collapse was NOT because of lack of Russia's support. It was BECAUSE of the internal conflicts of strong opposition, particularly from the churches. If you are saying that because Gorbachev, which was seeking a full reform of East Germany (hence opposing sending troops to suppress East German protesters) a lack of support, then I can see where you were going with the "lack" of support.
Ultimately, it was the East Germans who began tearing down the wall and the leader of Christian Democrat, Maizière became the head of East German gov't and decided to unify with West Germany and NATO.
But enough of history lessons as it has nothing to do with it. We were discussing about the cost of transition from authoritarian/socialism to democracy.
Many socialism or authoritarian states transitioned to a full democratic because they had a visionary, Russia had Gobarchev, Taiwan had Ching-kuo Chiang and both had a relatively little conflict for the process. Taiwan went democratic in 1988 after a series of law changes paving the way necessary for a multi-party democratic system. There was no bloodshed, civil war or anything alike. It just flowed accordingly. Civil elections started taking places and the rest is history.
So no, don't come to me with the crap that democratization cause bloodshed. or chaos. It can be done and had been done many times peacefully. The only argument is that CCP is willing to sacrifice the freedom of billions of Chinese citizens for the sake and benefit of its own.
Thus, when discussing this topic, one have to be clear whether they are pro-China or pro-CCP. They are two totally different things. I'm perfectly fine with pro-China... but Pro-CCP absolutely disgusts me because they violate so many human rights all in the sake of what? "Harmony"? Fuck no... it's the only argument CCP has to stay in power and those who are in charge can continue benefit from it.
They are not doing this for the sake of Chinese citizens benefits. China's economy can continue to grow with a democratic system, but the only thing is now they ACTUALLY have to take people's voice into consideration and not doing whatever the fuck they feel like.
What they are doing now for China is not what's people in China wants... it's what CCP wants people in China to have.
| I too think the final progression of any advance society is democracy. That should be the end goal of all society.
But I dont think China is ready today. All of the example you provide are country withs fractions of land and people compare to China. (exception being Russia, however post-democratic Former USSR territory is also fraction the size of pre-democratic USSR)
Russia (the modern day Russia not the USSR days) is also rule by iron hands. Ironically it economy overshadows that of its former USSR comrades.
And you are also right in that a successful revolution take a true visionary. This is a key piece of the puzzle is the missing in the Hong Kong revolution. I blame all the senseless vandalized, violence and misguide view of how a negotiation should work on having a mob lead a revolution.
You need a visionary to bring everyone together. Without that visionary, nobody in China will just get up a revolt and gamble everything they have on Mob mentality. One of the common objection when it comes to democracy when you talk to a educated mainlander, even one with the privilege of studying aboard, is the worry that their voice will be drown out by the voice of the poor and uneducated who will literally vote for who ever give them a piece of meat for dinner or even a guarantee of absolutely mobility into the city (controlling the flow of population is one of the key way CCP maintains control). Alot of China is still not educated enough to see past what happening tomorrow.
If anything Hong Kong stand the most chance of producing this visionary person. Yet the revolution is lead by bunch of kids and politician that hides and pass blame.
There is only two way to path of democracy in China, a true visionary (how many year do we have to wait for this to happened within a completely control society?) or the total collapse on the current system to a point where people are willing to gamble for something better.
There is a third option, CCP willingly give up their power in due time. The visionary could come from within the system. Dont hold your breath though, its is unlikely we will see any of these happening within our life time. | 