Porsche Taycan

[LP700-4]

Taycan was engineered to be a Porsche first, BEV second. Build quality, driving experience and performance prioritized over tech and pure range.

Keep in mind other BEV use very aggressive re-gen when off throttle while Taycan coasts like a normal car.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by LP700-4

Taycan was engineered to be a Porsche first, BEV second. Build quality, driving experience and performance prioritized over tech and pure range.

Keep in mind other BEV use very aggressive re-gen when off throttle while Taycan coasts like a normal car.

If that's truly Porsche's philosophy, then they weren't trying to design a BEV, but rather a traditional ICE car that happens to use BEV as powertrain.

Yes, for most parts, it might not be a problem. But this can ultimately mean that Porsche or any other traditional ICE car manufacturer would never be able to compete with Tesla/Rivian/Any other true BEV manufacturers because the experience would never be the same.

EVs and ICEs are very different. Sure they all have 4 wheels and a car shell... but that's pretty much where their similarities end.

If I were VAG, I'd just create a few new brands or sub-brands that really build BEV from scratch like Volvo's doing with its Polestar. Leave your legacies behind. They aren't assets... but baggage that drags you down.

By doing a half-ass job, they will have products than are neither better than their ICEs nor other EVs on the market. There are always some compromises.

So either embraced it fully by designing a great BEV or go cherry-pick EV's strength, like McLaren is going to do with a likely Hybrid that aims to best even the upcoming Tesla Roadster but keep the ICE in there to overcome shortfalls of BEVs.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by Hehe

Yes, for most parts, it might not be a problem. But this can ultimately mean that Porsche or any other traditional ICE car manufacturer would never be able to compete with Tesla/Rivian/Any other true BEV manufacturers because the experience would never be the same.

Please quantify what you mean by "experience", because I'm failing to see what that's supposed to mean.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by underscore

Please quantify what you mean by "experience", because I'm failing to see what that's supposed to mean.

The experience of a normal EV driving where you have all that fun of instant torque while not having to experience range anxiety. You’d charge at home on a regular basis while access fast DC chargers to do longer trips.

With the range that Porsche has, I’d say range anxiety would be a norm because it simply doesn’t have enough range for anything longer than getting to work from home or a morning cruise. Many DC chargers are quite far apart. Taking the Taycan on long trip might be a challenge because unless one’s hyper miling to get the most distance out of the battery, there might be instances where it’s impossible to go from this charger to the next.

Tesla has taken this into the decision of their car ranges and location of superchargers so one will never have to sacrifice driving comfort and habits for the sake of range

[underscore]

Originally Posted by Hehe

The experience of a normal EV driving where you have all that fun of instant torque while not having to experience range anxiety. You’d charge at home on a regular basis while access fast DC chargers to do longer trips.

Aren't the fast chargers fairly new? Which would make range anxiety a more normal part of EV driving. Either way, most people barely drive anywhere and don't go on many long journeys, so they wouldn't care. Worst case just take another vehicle for the small amount of the time it's an issue.

Originally Posted by Hehe

Tesla has taken this into the decision of their car ranges and location of superchargers so one will never have to sacrifice driving comfort and habits for the sake of range

You really need to put down the Tesla Koolaid. I dunno about you, but a half mile line just to get to replenish my source of propulsion definitely sounds like a sacrifice to me.

https://www.businessinsider.com/holi...n-the-moment-9

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by underscore

Aren't the fast chargers fairly new? Which would make range anxiety a more normal part of EV driving. Either way, most people barely drive anywhere and don't go on many long journeys, so they wouldn't care. Worst case just take another vehicle for the small amount of the time it's an issue.



You really need to put down the Tesla Koolaid. I dunno about you, but a half mile line just to get to replenish my source of propulsion definitely sounds like a sacrifice to me.

https://www.businessinsider.com/holi...n-the-moment-9

All you listed just proved my point further. Yes, I'm pro-Tesla. But the very reason for that is Tesla was and so far still is the only EV manufacturer that made EV viable because it offered a decent driving experience. So much so that they are on par, if not better than their ICE counterparts.

EV is hardly new. Development of EV started way before Tesla was even founded. But many prior iterations of EV attempt was just that... a half-assed attempt to something new. This is where the stereotype of EV started. They had horrible range to cause range anxiety. The drive sucked monkeyball because they simply bolted an electric drivetrain to an ICE car body.

By not offering (or at least without a plan) a decent experience, Porsche EV attempt would be just that... an attempt.

Thus, I'd love to see an EV with build quality to the Porsche caliber, but heck no if it's going to be an EV that's very limited and fall into the stereotype of old school EVs. Range (both the battery and the charging infrastructure) is a very important part to the whole EV experience, perhaps the major critic to EV adaptation. Tesla has shown that range and performance (since Porsche mentioned they made the decision because they want... well, a Porsche) aren't mutually exclusive in the EV world. You can very well build an EV that's both FAST and has a very decent range for day-2-day driving.

By offering an EV with compromises, from a car manufacturer that has all the possible resources (VAG owns Porsche, Bugatti, and Lambo for god sake)behind simply tells me that Porsche rushed the Taycan to the market and it's going to be a dent in the history of such a prestigious car brand.

Tesla didn't happen overnight. But what they had was a plan. They knew what kind of problem EV have vs. their ICE counterparts. So they went ahead and tried to address one problem at a time. Up to a point that I find driving a Tesla... even though it still has it shares of problems, the benefit of having a Tesla as EV outweights any other ICE car that I find interesting on the market.

[underscore]

When all you mean by "experience" is range just say range.

Originally Posted by Hehe

All you listed just proved my point further. Yes, I'm pro-Tesla. But the very reason for that is Tesla was and so far still is the only EV manufacturer that made EV viable because it offered a decent driving experience. So much so that they are on par, if not better than their ICE counterparts.

How exactly am I proving it further? Also it depends what you're after, it sounds like all you're interested in is a long-range battery/fuel supply, which is the least important thing to me for driving experience. No 5k+ lb vehicle is going to give what I would call an interesting driving experience, you need handling for that.

Originally Posted by Hehe

EV is hardly new. Development of EV started way before Tesla was even founded. But many prior iterations of EV attempt was just that... a half-assed attempt to something new. This is where the stereotype of EV started. They had horrible range to cause range anxiety. The drive sucked monkeyball because they simply bolted an electric drivetrain to an ICE car body.

By not offering (or at least without a plan) a decent experience, Porsche EV attempt would be just that... an attempt.

Thus, I'd love to see an EV with build quality to the Porsche caliber, but heck no if it's going to be an EV that's very limited and fall into the stereotype of old school EVs. Range (both the battery and the charging infrastructure) is a very important part to the whole EV experience, perhaps the major critic to EV adaptation. Tesla has shown that range and performance (since Porsche mentioned they made the decision because they want... well, a Porsche) aren't mutually exclusive in the EV world. You can very well build an EV that's both FAST and has a very decent range for day-2-day driving.

Who needs more than 320km of range for day-to-day use? I know some people have really shitty commutes but even if you're going 100km each way you're still nowhere near worrying about your range.

Originally Posted by Hehe

By offering an EV with compromises, from a car manufacturer that has all the possible resources (VAG owns Porsche, Bugatti, and Lambo for god sake)behind simply tells me that Porsche rushed the Taycan to the market and it's going to be a dent in the history of such a prestigious car brand.

I don't know every detail of Porsche over the years but the two things I do know are 1) the 911 is the only car they've cared to have be a significant part of their history, and 2) that nothing, absolutely nothing, is allowed to come close to the 911 in performance (the exceptions being the Carrera GT and 918) to the point they intentionally cripple their other cars.

Originally Posted by Hehe

Up to a point that I find driving a Tesla... even though it still has it shares of problems, the benefit of having a Tesla as EV outweights any other ICE car that I find interesting on the market.

I'm curious what those benefits are, because aside from very briefly going fast in a straight line I haven't heard a thing about them that makes it even vaguely interesting to actual performance car enthusiasts. All I've seen from most owners has nothing to do with actually doing anything fun with a car.

edit: though that's off-topic as it has nothing to do with the Taycan.

[twitchyzero]

acceleration is a performance metric...some enjoy that rocket ship kick on a commute and never take it on a road course, i don't see them as any less 'actual performance enthusiast' that must have owned a lotus exige/cayman GT4 under their belt

[!LittleDragon]

People who drive for fun do it because it stimulates the senses. They want to feel the G's, the steering feedback, smell the various smells, hear all the various noises, feel the engine vibrations, etc...

The Model S I rented only ticked the G force box when I stomped the pedal.

[68style]

^
This... all these cars are a 1 trick pony... gadgets and acceleration. Yippee!

Where's the soul? I can't wait for a nostalgic video in 30 years of an old man putting on his driving gloves in a garage in Italy and pushing the button on a Tesla and hearing a whirring sound as some screens light up and then he silently whooshes around some corners and verifies it can still do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds or whatever........ oh wait that video will never happen, because it's an appliance and there's nothing passionate about it and no sensory feedback and nobody will care when it's old. Heck, maybe it won't even be able to turn on because it got software locked years before and it's part of that trend where nobody actually owns anything anymore... you just buy the rights to use it for awhile.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by 68style

^
This... all these cars are a 1 trick pony... gadgets and acceleration. Yippee!

Where's the soul? I can't wait for a nostalgic video in 30 years of an old man putting on his driving gloves in a garage in Italy and pushing the button on a Tesla and hearing a whirring sound as some screens light up and then he silently whooshes around some corners and verifies it can still do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds or whatever........ oh wait that video will never happen, because it's an appliance and there's nothing passionate about it and no sensory feedback and nobody will care when it's old. Heck, maybe it won't even be able to turn on because it got software locked years before and it's part of that trend where nobody actually owns anything anymore... you just buy the rights to use it for awhile.

With how current ICE cars electronic management system goes, there is little to be done without the factory equipment. Some manufacturers go so far that some of the critical parts, even after replacement, if you don't have the factory system to reset it, the car will not pass its own checking process and will not fire.

The days where you can get your hands dirty and work everything on your car is long gone. It pretty much has been this case for the last decade or more.

[twitchyzero]

i'm sure the equestrian enthusiasts said the same about oldsmobile in the late 19th century...it took a few decades for the tech maturation/scale of economy for sporty models from bugatti/mercedes to come out

i for one can't wait until someone does the original tesla roadster concept again...no more stupid arguments about mid-engine vs rear-engine vs front etc. because all the weight is down low

that said i wanna keep a manual transmission rev-happy NA example for as long as i can

[Koflach]

Originally Posted by !LittleDragon

People who drive for fun do it because it stimulates the senses. They want to feel the G's, the steering feedback, smell the various smells, hear all the various noises, feel the engine vibrations, etc...

The Model S I rented only ticked the G force box when I stomped the pedal.

One of my favorite things about driving an EV is the lack of engine noise/vibrations and the lack of exhaust smells. I can low key accelerate as I don't have the annoying scream from the engine drawing attention to me.

Everyone drives for their own reasons and not every car is going to check every box for everyone. You get what works best for you, i'll get what works for me. I just couldn't see myself going back to an ICE car again after owning an EV for just over a year now.

[Hehe]

I was just reading the note on Jalopnik about why Taycan's EPA is so bad.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-why-the-p...bad-1840444842

What a bunch of craps. They are trying to spin the bad efficiency of Taycan with the way of battery is managed in order to be "more reliable", lowering warranty cost... etc. Or how EPA is rated.

Every EV manufacturer does battery management and while some are better or worse than one another, as far as powertrain goes, I'd say all models from Kia to Tesla seem to be doing fine for the last 2yrs. And they all go through the same EPA options. They aren't favoring any brand in particular.

And reading that Ferrari won't get into EV until 2025 because technology and infrastructure simly isn't ready, it just affirms my suspicion: Porsche rushed the Taycan to the market. They simply did not yet have a system that can be on par with Tesla or even KIA that sells for 80% less than Taycan while achieving 80% more efficiency, but decided to launch anyway with a lot of "claims". And when confronted with the "reality", they simply try to BS their way out of it instead of admitting that they still have work to do, but this is what the best Porsche can do now.

Now the have the most expensive and the lowest efficiency EV on the market. How's that for marketing?

Oh well... I guess Porsche fans have a pocket so deep that they wouldn't care anyway.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by Koflach

One of my favorite things about driving an EV is the lack of engine noise/vibrations and the lack of exhaust smells. I can low key accelerate as I don't have the annoying scream from the engine drawing attention to me.

Everyone drives for their own reasons and not every car is going to check every box for everyone. You get what works best for you, i'll get what works for me. I just couldn't see myself going back to an ICE car again after owning an EV for just over a year now.

I agree. I remember opening up my S2000 into Vtec every time I was in a tunnel. That intake and exhaust sound.
Last week, I rented a 5.0L mustang and even stock, that growl when in sport mode. Just miss some of the back fire like in the M4 or AMG's. Instan VI but man that sound.

As for EV, yes, no ICE car can accelerate like an EV can. Even my Leaf when i turn off all the eco stuff.

[!LittleDragon]

Originally Posted by Koflach

One of my favorite things about driving an EV is the lack of engine noise/vibrations and the lack of exhaust smells. I can low key accelerate as I don't have the annoying scream from the engine drawing attention to me.

That was actually something that bothered me about the Model S I drove. It was so quiet that I heard every single creak and rattle from the interior. It actually made the car feel cheap to me... lol

[twitchyzero]

mission E was revealed 4 years ago, i dont think that's considered rushed

you want range & tech, buy Tesla

you want pedigree/prestige, get Porsche

not every automaker is trying to cram in the largest battery/set up aggressive regen brakes

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