coronavirus discussion

[JD¹³]

Another article detailing the difference between Canada and Australia's actions on controlling the outbreak. Yet more proof that our countries limp-dick leadership has handled this poorly and cost lives: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...d-19-responses

"Both countries discovered their first cases on January 25. By the end of February, Australia had 25 cases, Canada 20. Most of these cases were clustered in large metropolitan cities for both, and by March 25, each country had about 3,000 people who had tested positive."

"Then something changed dramatically. As of Friday afternoon, Australia has slightly more than 6,500 cases – Canada has more than 30,000. Over the last week, Australia added 383 new cases while Canada has added around 1,000 to its total every day. There have been about 66 coronavirus-related deaths in Australia, while Canada has lost nearly 1,200 people to the disease." (71 vs 1587 as of today)

"Few cases in Australia originated in China, since the former country moved quickly to ban travel from the latter. In fact, most importations arrived from Europe and the United States, with many, notably, originating on cruise ships. On March 15, two weeks before new cases of COVID-19 began to decline in Australia, all travellers arriving in the country were “required” to self-isolate for 14 days."

"In comparison, self-isolation for return travellers was only “advised” in Canada until March 25. That is the period when many Canadian families returned home from their March Break trips, as did many of the snowbirds who spend their winters in Florida. Perhaps because of these lax instructions, and the seamlessness of travel from the U.S., returning Canadians spread the virus throughout their communities. In Australia, community transmission has only accounted for about 10 per cent of COVID-19 cases; in Canada this rate is close to 75 per cent."

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by JD¹³

Another article detailing the difference between Canada and Australia's actions on controlling the outbreak. Yet more proof that our countries limp-dick leadership has handled this poorly and cost lives: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...d-19-responses

"Both countries discovered their first cases on January 25. By the end of February, Australia had 25 cases, Canada 20. Most of these cases were clustered in large metropolitan cities for both, and by March 25, each country had about 3,000 people who had tested positive."

"Then something changed dramatically. As of Friday afternoon, Australia has slightly more than 6,500 cases – Canada has more than 30,000. Over the last week, Australia added 383 new cases while Canada has added around 1,000 to its total every day. There have been about 66 coronavirus-related deaths in Australia, while Canada has lost nearly 1,200 people to the disease." (71 vs 1587 as of today)

"Few cases in Australia originated in China, since the former country moved quickly to ban travel from the latter. In fact, most importations arrived from Europe and the United States, with many, notably, originating on cruise ships. On March 15, two weeks before new cases of COVID-19 began to decline in Australia, all travellers arriving in the country were “required” to self-isolate for 14 days."

"In comparison, self-isolation for return travellers was only “advised” in Canada until March 25. That is the period when many Canadian families returned home from their March Break trips, as did many of the snowbirds who spend their winters in Florida. Perhaps because of these lax instructions, and the seamlessness of travel from the U.S., returning Canadians spread the virus throughout their communities. In Australia, community transmission has only accounted for about 10 per cent of COVID-19 cases; in Canada this rate is close to 75 per cent."

You make a good point but take care not to fall into the same trap I did this morning with Sweden and Netherlands.

Most people would say that Singapore did a great job of dealing with the virus early on. They acted as quick as Taiwan and HK, had a lot of testing and trace everyone's movements. They closed their border to China, and then the rest of the world. In March people were talking about how they have "contained" the virus.

However they are currently having tons of new cases - 1400 today - and they are all community transmissions (since the border is closed). Meanwhile Hong Kong is around 2-4 new cases per day (while we wait to see if a third wave comes).

If you look deeper, you will see that most of these cases are taking place through the dormitories where low income foreign workers live. Yeah, Singapore has a dark side not many people talk about... But I digress...

So there is a LOT more to why things happen than just straight up numbers. Sweden took a relaxed approach and they are paying the price, Netherlands got more strict a month ago, but it was too late, and they are being ravaged. None of this is as bad as Spain or Italy...

Another thing to consider is how much each country is testing. USA is testing by far the most out of any country that is being hit hard - 150K per day. Canada is nowhere near that, but they have still been testing about 3X as much as Australia has been. Typically 24K per day, compared to 8K. Normally this doesn't matter as much - obviously just count all the sick people right? But as we know, there are tons of asymptomatic people who get counted if there's more testing done that otherwise would just be told to stay home and quarantine, and are never counted.

On top of all this, the sources of this data varies country by country. Everyone does things a bit different. Some completely and arbitrarily lie.

So I think my main point is: There is little to be conclusive right now just by comparing one country to another. There's just not really enough data to do more than come up with a hypothesis. Things may lean one way, but with all these issues to consider (have we even considered climate? We still don't know), it's kind of hard to say any government could have made things significantly better by taking different actions.

Maybe Canada was "limp dick" or maybe they weren't, we won't really know for sure until we look back at everything in hindsight.

[hud 91gt]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Sorry if it wasn't made clear enough in the tweet, but the intention of the chart is not "random countries" but rather comparing the nordic countries, with Korea added as the "best case scenario" of a country handling it. What you do with that data is up to you, but the point being made is that compared to other nordic countries, Sweden's govt took a different approach, not enforcing any sort of stay-home measures, no shut down of non-essential businesses, etc. Everything is just "suggested"

Of course if you compare it to Spain or USA or Italy, it's not going to look the same. But THAT would be comparing "random countries" rather than trying to make any kind of comparison. The only point of that would be to make a fallacious argument in order to discredit any other points being made, but I'm not sure why you'd want to do that... You literally said you came up with a "nonsense" chart... so what reason is there to even consider it?

If you actually wanted to argue against it, you might have brought up the Netherlands, which has WAY more deaths and has had strict social distancing measures in place since late March. Yes, I'll destroy my own post if I learn more info Just saying, this is the way to do it, not logical fallacy. Maybe we can learn more instead? So if Sweden's relatively high rate of death can be explained through lack of strict controls, what explains Netherlands? Maybe late March was simply too late, and things are going to get even worse in Sweden eventually? They already have more deaths per million than USA

If I had looked at the chart for more the 6.5 seconds I probably would have figure that out.... lol

But... here’s some stats I just stole using deaths per 1m of a population. Missing link here is first confirmed case, but since the countries are close together.... let’s make ASs-U-me.

Netherlands: 219
Poland: 10
Norway: 31
Sweden: 156
Iceland: 26
Finland: 18


Then you think these countries are about the size of an American state. Where the entire country had initially similar policies, and things like NY pop up.... then a state next door with next to nothing. I don’t even know what I’m trying to say but there doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason.

JD brought up Australia. Didn’t summer just end in a super hot and dry climate? Could that be part of the statistics?


Deaths by Population density would be a great one to look at too.

[twitchyzero]

Originally Posted by twdm

We refuse to spend hundreds of thousands per patient on novel cancer treatments but we're willing to spend millions per patient and put millions into poverty to prevent deaths of people who are honestly probably going to die within the next 5 years.

the only part of your post that isn't complete horseshit

i have to agree that this pandemic taught us humanity as a collective can at least address major issues seriously like homelessness and pollution if we pull our bootstraps up

sounds like you went into healthcare for the wrong reasons if you can still sleep at night letting nature 'run its course' knowing 750 billion will be dying in the next few years just because 'they old'

[hud 91gt]

^there is idealistic views and then there is realistic views. What’s right?

TWDM May have a harsh view. But what if we go into a serious depression due to these actions? Have you had many conversations with people who have been through the 1930’s? Stories of properties traded for stale bread, bricks of gold for bread? Bad things can come from our actions. It’s about weighing the pros and cons.

[MG1]

It's not just the old who are dying.

I hope you, twdm, get the virus and then we'll see if your point of view stands. BTW, you have parents?

I feel sorry for you...................... god bless.


Under these circumstances, we all deal with it in our own way. Not bringing out the best in us.

[Ch28]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

sounds like you went into healthcare for the wrong reasons if you can still sleep at night letting nature 'run its course' knowing 750 billion will be dying in the next few years just because 'they old'

We'd be absolutely fucked if the entire earth's population was 750 billion people.

I can see where twdm is coming from. Whether you agree or not with his/her views is entirely up to you, but it doesn't make it any less valid.

"We refuse to spend hundreds of thousands per patient on novel cancer treatments but we're willing to spend millions per patient and put millions into poverty to prevent deaths of people who are honestly probably going to die within the next 5 years."

He's not wrong with that statement. It becomes one of those "for the greater good" situations.

[hud 91gt]

Are you talking about me? I’m high risk (pneumonia a couple times), my mom is about as high as it gets. I have all my grandparents still (lucky right?). I have more to lose then anyone. Don’t give me that BS, please.


Edit: ... I apologize MG1 I missed the comma. I misread. I saw “you, TWDM,” as in you and TWDM. Defensive? Lol. Sorry.

[JD¹³]

Skinny and hud - both raise valid points.

With all that in mind I think the telling data is that regardless of climate Canada and Australia had their first cases on the same day, and two full months later remained similar in 'official' numbers of infected. The difference swings in the incubation period after Australia took the path of required isolation vice Canada's zero enforcement suggestions of doing so. The fact that our numbers have exploded since and that there's an approx 65% difference between cases from community transmission tells that the honour approach failed miserably.

People in general are stupid. People are sheep. People in this very thread have demonstrated that. Leadership is in place to serve but also protect the herd. I feel that the governments both provincially and federally failed to do so, with more weight on the Feds because provinces kind of follow their lead. The Fed had direct military intelligence on the severity of this outbreak and they called it racist and offensive to take the action they needed to. The government appointed CPHO told us for months that "risk of infection is low" when they knew damn well that wasn't true then spent $30 million on ads showing the same woman telling us to take it seriously and protect ourselves

I'd call it an unprecedented event but it's really not. Natural and weaponized biological threats have been modeled for decades. SARS hit Toronto 'recently' and did measurable damage to the national economy, luckily only a small number of people died. Canada had early credible intelligence that this was a serious outbreak and they ignored it. People and government make mistakes, to err is human. But the government really failed us here.

[MG1]

Originally Posted by hud 91gt

Are you talking about me? I’m high risk (pneumonia a couple times), my mom is about as high as it gets. I have all my grandparents still (lucky right?). I have more to lose then anyone. Don’t give me that BS, please.

Nope.............wasn't talking about you. I thought I was pretty clear who I was addressing.

Anyway, people have a right to whatever opinion they have.

[!LittleDragon]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

sounds like you went into healthcare for the wrong reasons if you can still sleep at night letting nature 'run its course' knowing 750 billion will be dying in the next few years just because 'they old'

I see where he's coming from. When tasked with making big decisions, you can't let emotions cloud your judgement. Deciding who gets to live isn't a choice healthcare workers normally have to make.

[mikemhg]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

The other thing they do is call people "sheep"



You're right, it's more for sheeps like this

I'm going to use this photo as my Zoom virtual background on my next company team meeting

[Hondaracer]

People keep saying “it’s not just old people getting it”

That’s true, but the VAST majority of serious cases and fatalities are older people with underlying health issues.

You don’t have to look any further than B.C., where what, 98% of deaths are the elderly in nursing homes?

If this was to happen again in the next 10 years you pretty much have to just let it run It’s course. There’s no way in hell the global economy could face another shutdown.

[highfive]

Not defending limp dick jt but Canada is bordered with USA and Australia is on its own.

Plus we have the issues of snowbirds returning home from the USA. That’s the biggest risk i see upcoming.

[Hondaracer]

Bordering the US doesn’t effect planes flying here from China.

[Teriyaki]

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/20/2...llience-biobot

Read this about testing sewer systems for concentration of the virus and thought its quite an interesting approach. If accurate, could give you a much clearer idea of where the concentrations are without mass individual testing. Wonder if any communities in Canada are doing this.

[JD¹³]

Originally Posted by highfive

Not defending limp dick jt but Canada is bordered with USA and Australia is on its own.

Plus we have the issues of snowbirds returning home from the USA. That’s the biggest risk i see upcoming.

Yeah, we were more exposed, at higher risk, and did less

[MG1]

Before any more time passes, I would like to apologize for what I said earlier to twdm. I crossed the line. I would never wish a fate like that to anyone. Attacking another member for what they post on RS is never a cool thing to do. I've really tried not to do that anymore.

In troubled times like this, people lose all perspective. Stress, frustration, etc. Still not an excuse. We all need to remind ourselves to be kind to one another - even to strangers. I temporarily lost it and I truly apologize.

I read a few posts, I believe in this thread, made by a member who attacked someone who's been on this forum for quite some time. Things like "You're a retard, and, You started it first, etc." I thought to myself, is this what grown ups do? Maybe I need to take time away from RS. Certainly remove myself from this thread. Things are going to get much, much worse. The ugly side of everyone is coming out.

Thank goodness for level headed people like westopher and the like. I've never seen him lose it.


Anyway, keep on keeping on. There's always chat and freebies thread, hee hee.

[Teriyaki]

Originally Posted by MG1

Before any more time passes, I would like to apologize for what I said earlier to twdm. I crossed the line. I would never wish a fate like that to anyone. Attacking another member for what they post on RS is never a cool thing to do. I've really tried not to do that anymore.

In troubled times like this, people lose all perspective. Stress, frustration, etc. Still not an excuse. We all need to remind ourselves to be kind to one another - even to strangers. I temporarily lost it and I truly apologize.

I read a few posts, I believe in this thread, made by a member who attacked someone who's been on this forum for quite some time. Things like "You're a retard, and, You started it first, etc." I thought to myself, is this what grown ups do? Maybe I need to take time away from RS. Certainly remove myself from this thread. Things are going to get much, much worse. The ugly side of everyone is coming out.

Thank goodness for level headed people like westopher and the like. I've never seen him lose it.


Anyway, keep on keeping on. There's always chat and freebies thread, hee hee.

RS is one of a few places I follow quite closely for discussions (not just Covid-related). Good on ya for being able to reflect and recognize previous transgressions, so few people can do this, and even fewer recognize it online. I just wanted to say that RS as a whole, is pretty level-headed and one of the places I like to go for more sane discussion.

Other platforms like Reddit, Twitter, and FB are just a cesspool of either literal trolls, complete braindead twats, conspiracy theorists, and just overall complete garbage it makes my blood boil.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by JD¹³

Yeah, we were more exposed, at higher risk, and did less

That is literally the liberal motto.

[68style]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

That is literally the liberal motto.

I wouldn’t say that, I consider myself to be pretty liberal minded and my first thought when this came out was that the only solution was to completely isolate.

Letting all those flights come in quarantine-free from Iran was a massive mistake.

[westopher]

Originally Posted by MG1

Thank goodness for level headed people like westopher and the like. I've never seen him lose it.

Thank you MG1. I don't think I'm levelheaded.
I do at least try to articulate my angle and partake in discussion instead of just failing people and insulting them though. Although there are lots of people I disagree with in here, most of them are still people I respect, and would probably actually like in person if they'd shut the fuck up about politics for a little bit.

[twitchyzero]

Originally Posted by Ch28

We'd be absolutely fucked if the entire earth's population was 750 billion people.

I can see where twdm is coming from. Whether you agree or not with his/her views is entirely up to you, but it doesn't make it any less valid.

"We refuse to spend hundreds of thousands per patient on novel cancer treatments but we're willing to spend millions per patient and put millions into poverty to prevent deaths of people who are honestly probably going to die within the next 5 years."

He's not wrong with that statement. It becomes one of those "for the greater good" situations.

so if 80-90% of the people born before 1965 drops dead in the coming months, it's all good?

we FINALLY have governments trying to work collectively and then out comes the 'stop fearmongering' voices, from someone who's directly involved in medical care no less? that's truly the scary part...hope he tells us where he works so I can advise friends in HK not to visit there in case they need pharmacy care

yes there's still so much work to be done to minimize casualities from climate change, genocides, poverty but there hasn't been an issue that's this widespread challenging our human race in 100 years. You look at famines, natural disasters and they're mostly localized. Even world wars/depression wasn't felt in every last household. A pandemic this wide affects just about everyone.

[SkinnyPupp]

Do we really have to go over why it's so wrong to say "it's just old people getting it" AGAIN? I thought we'd learned but I guess not. If you say this or "it's just like the flu" just stop please.

Anyway here's an interesting study on the three strains of the virus that are spreading around... It's a bit hard to follow at least for me first thing in the morning, but interesting info nonetheless

In another case, a man from Ontario had traveled from Wuhan in central China to Guangdong in southern China and then returned to Canada, where he fell ill and was conclusively diagnosed with coronavirus disease 2019 on 27 January 2020. In the phylogenetic network, his virus genome branches from a reconstructed ancestral node, with derived virus variants in Foshan and Shenzhen (both in Guangdong province), in agreement with his travel history. His virus genome now coexists with those of other infected North Americans (one Canadian and two Californians) who evidently share a common viral genealogy. The case of the single Mexican viral genome in the network is a documented infection diagnosed on 28 February 2020 in a Mexican traveler to Italy. Not only does the network confirm the Italian origin of the Mexican virus, but it also implies that this Italian virus derives from the first documented German infection on 27 January 2020 in an employee working for the Webasto company in Munich, who, in turn, had contracted the infection from a Chinese colleague in Shanghai who had received a visit by her parents from Wuhan. This viral journey from Wuhan to Mexico, lasting a month, is documented by 10 mutations in the phylogenetic network.

[underscore]

TIL being 45+ is now "old"

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...-demographics/

AGE Share of deaths
0 - 17 years old 0.04%
18 - 44 years old 4.5%
45 - 64 years old 23.1%
65 - 74 years old 24.6%
75+ years old 47.7%