coronavirus discussion

[welfare]

Originally Posted by SkunkWorks

Evidently the people screaming we've overreacted clearly don't have family members or relatives ill/dying/dead.

Easy to sit behind your keyboard or picket sign when it ain't you putting your family on the line. How about we trade your parents' lives so I can go get my haircut. Greater good right?

And scoffing at Sweden's "only 3k" deaths. That's more than died from 9/11 and we still hold vigils annually around the world for them to this day.

I don't know if you were directing this post at me, but if so, i wasn't scoffing at their 3k deaths. Just stating that it was nowhere near what was projected by analysts.
Myself personally, I've been quite cautious about this. Haven't gone anywhere except grocery runs once a week, and at the least busy time of day while masked up. Other than that just work in the evening when no one else is there. And of course, minding my hands.

I guess i just appreciate seeing different countries trying different strategies so we have at least some form of reference to judge from. Obviously there's no one size fits all. Different population density, healthcare systems, cultures, etc. It's been suggested that there are even different strains as well.
And yes, they have implemented restrictions of certain things and bolstered their healthcare system.
I'm not trying to say anyone is overreacting, but what if there never is a vaccine?
I think how Sweden has handled this is to assume that there may never be and that this is just something we'll have to figure out how to live with. Because if that is the case, locking down for periods then opening back up repeatedly is not sustainable.

[SkinnyPupp]

Projections are based on current status as they were being made. So we adapted to make sure the projections didn't happen. And then they didn't. So instead of feeling good about successfully avoiding literally a worldwide catastrophe, we get... Just... Please why are we even having this discussion?

"How Sweden Handled This" is just a result of an EU wide shutdown, along with being in the situation they are in population and culture wise. They still closed schools, they still limited social gatherings. It's so damn annoying when people try to use Sweden as an example of "it wasn't a big deal". It was a big deal, Sweden handled it differently, and by ratio are WAY WORSE off than most other countries around them. But sure, everything went fine there because some people still make lots of money there.

I do agree that Sweden may be "how we deal with this from now on" at least in part, with the elimination of gatherings larger than 50 people, etc. No more concerts or hockey games. I think it's somewhat amusing how NFL is acting like everything is going to be "fine" when the season starts.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

STILL.

There seems to be a very small group of people who fail to perceive that the results we see now, compared to say Italy, Spain, and Wuhan, are a result of the strict measures that were enforced. The reason "you're minimum 20x more blah blah blah" is because the social distancing rules effectively prevented complete catastrophe. The projections of millions getting sick and hundreds of thousands dying are based on if nothing was done to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Thankfully not everyone in government is a complete idiot, so we were able to prevent these spikes from occurring in most cities. New York being an exception. Imagine if the rest of the country was like New York? People would be WISHING that their problems were merely unemployment. Jesus fuck.

You're basically saying "what we did worked, but since not many people got sick, we shouldn't have done it". It's easy to see a toddler making an argument like that, but come fucking on.

While I agree this statement to a certain extend, this is what I see now.

Many of the hard hit countries had it coming because they "didn't think it was serious". Taiwan was the only country that took it with the same precaution (if not more) than SARS from day 1. And it was able to contain the pandemic without shutting down the economy.

Now that most people (save some libertarians) know that this shit is serious and are taking preventative measures, I don't see the reason of continuing the lockdown.

Of course, I'm not saying to just open everything back to where it was. I suggest that any business unable to put some safety measures in place should remain closed like bar/clubs... etc. But the rest of the businesses should be allowed to come back as long as some safety guidelines are being followed.

The reason is simple and I've already commented before. What good is the lockdown doing if the aftermath is an economy totally destroyed with the majority of population having to go on gov't support and whatnot?

They might not become sick of the virus, but their life would forever be devastated by the lockdown.

Now that we have a clearer picture of what the virus is capable of, like for most younger people (below 45) are mostly like a very bad flu... we should design a provide guidelines for people how to prevent from getting sick in the first place and what to do to minimize their spread if one does get infected.

If one wants to continue with the lockdown mentality, then the only time to make sense to reopen the economy is when we have a vaccine ready. But by then, people wouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck, they'd be living gov't subsidy to subsidy.

And if we agree that we ARE going to reopen the economy BEFORE a vaccine becomes available, then reopening now vs. 3weeks later makes lil difference in spread but HUGE impact on the economy.

We already screwed up the prevention of spread thanks to WHO and China of their attempt to play down the seriousness of the disease. Now the effect of lockdown on the economy is just as serious. Let's not screw that up again.

[whitev70r]

What I don't get is how Quebec is opening elementary school on Monday while they still have like 400+ new cases daily.

[Jmac]

CheQUE

Only ‘Murrica spells it “check”

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by Hehe

While I agree this statement to a certain extend, this is what I see now.

Many of the hard hit countries had it coming because they "didn't think it was serious". Taiwan was the only country that took it with the same precaution (if not more) than SARS from day 1. And it was able to contain the pandemic without shutting down the economy.

Now that most people (save some libertarians) know that this shit is serious and are taking preventative measures, I don't see the reason of continuing the lockdown.

Of course, I'm not saying to just open everything back to where it was. I suggest that any business unable to put some safety measures in place should remain closed like bar/clubs... etc. But the rest of the businesses should be allowed to come back as long as some safety guidelines are being followed.

The reason is simple and I've already commented before. What good is the lockdown doing if the aftermath is an economy totally destroyed with the majority of population having to go on gov't support and whatnot?

They might not become sick of the virus, but their life would forever be devastated by the lockdown.

Now that we have a clearer picture of what the virus is capable of, like for most younger people (below 45) are mostly like a very bad flu... we should design a provide guidelines for people how to prevent from getting sick in the first place and what to do to minimize their spread if one does get infected.

If one wants to continue with the lockdown mentality, then the only time to make sense to reopen the economy is when we have a vaccine ready. But by then, people wouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck, they'd be living gov't subsidy to subsidy.

And if we agree that we ARE going to reopen the economy BEFORE a vaccine becomes available, then reopening now vs. 3weeks later makes lil difference in spread but HUGE impact on the economy.

We already screwed up the prevention of spread thanks to WHO and China of their attempt to play down the seriousness of the disease. Now the effect of lockdown on the economy is just as serious. Let's not screw that up again.

I think that's what our province is going with, it's just they put it into phases to get everyone prepared for it, instead of opening the floodgates and potentially fucking things up even more

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

What I don't get is how Quebec is opening elementary school on Monday while they still have like 400+ new cases daily.

Quebecers actually think they're handling this well, so that's probably why
The citizens think their numbers are high because they do more testing, and have the most seniors, even though theyre not doing a lot of testing, and only have more seniors by 0.X%

[welfare]

Didn't they change the date to may 25th?
I believe they're also restricting class sizes. Schools reopening is also dependent on whether the rates improve.

[Jmac]

Schools have remained open in my school district since spring break ended but only children of health care workers were allowed to attend.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by Jmac

CheQUE

Only ‘Murrica spells it “check”

Bahahaha... excuse for my American-learned ESL...

Funny thing is, my primary European language is actually Spanish, and it's also spelled like che"que".

[Hondaracer]

Nvm

[twdm]

Originally Posted by SkunkWorks

Evidently the people screaming we've overreacted clearly don't have family members or relatives ill/dying/dead.

Easy to sit behind your keyboard or picket sign when it ain't you putting your family on the line. How about we trade your parents' lives so I can go get my haircut. Greater good right?

And scoffing at Sweden's "only 3k" deaths. That's more than died from 9/11 and we still hold vigils annually around the world for them to this day.

Do you hold vigils for all the people who die from pneumonia or tuberculosis every year?

Sure go get your haircut. Both my parents are frontline nurses "risking their lives" for a bunch of online covid crusaders. They're in the at risk group. Should I tell them to get all their aged 45+ nurses to quit cause they're all gonna die?

Let's see, my whole family are frontline medical workers so who's putting their lives on the line? But I'm not going to make it about myself. Let's look at evidence.

List me a single medical trial that shows the superiority of lockdown to no lockdown. Yea I thought so, because there is zero evidence what we're doing now is more effective than doing nothing. It has never been done before. So saying what we did prevented catastrophe has zero proof in the medical world. It is all based on assumption and conjecture. If you can find me one randomized controlled trial supporting what is happening now, you can permaban me.

[StylinRed]

Or maybe they can just permaban you anyways?

There have been smaller scale lockdown in the past tho, like with Ebola, and what they learned from that was lockdown should be put in place earlier, and contact tracing, contact tracing, contact tracing

[1337]

Originally Posted by twdm

Do you hold vigils for all the people who die from pneumonia or tuberculosis every year?

Sure go get your haircut. Both my parents are frontline nurses "risking their lives" for a bunch of online covid crusaders. They're in the at risk group. Should I tell them to get all their aged 45+ nurses to quit cause they're all gonna die?

Let's see, my whole family are frontline medical workers so who's putting their lives on the line? But I'm not going to make it about myself. Let's look at evidence.

List me a single medical trial that shows the superiority of lockdown to no lockdown. Yea I thought so, because there is zero evidence what we're doing now is more effective than doing nothing. It has never been done before. So saying what we did prevented catastrophe has zero proof in the medical world. It is all based on assumption and conjecture. If you can find me one randomized controlled trial supporting what is happening now, you can permaban me.

Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by Hehe

While I agree this statement to a certain extend, this is what I see now.

Many of the hard hit countries had it coming because they "didn't think it was serious". Taiwan was the only country that took it with the same precaution (if not more) than SARS from day 1. And it was able to contain the pandemic without shutting down the economy.

Now that most people (save some libertarians) know that this shit is serious and are taking preventative measures, I don't see the reason of continuing the lockdown.

Of course, I'm not saying to just open everything back to where it was. I suggest that any business unable to put some safety measures in place should remain closed like bar/clubs... etc. But the rest of the businesses should be allowed to come back as long as some safety guidelines are being followed.

The reason is simple and I've already commented before. What good is the lockdown doing if the aftermath is an economy totally destroyed with the majority of population having to go on gov't support and whatnot?

They might not become sick of the virus, but their life would forever be devastated by the lockdown.

Now that we have a clearer picture of what the virus is capable of, like for most younger people (below 45) are mostly like a very bad flu... we should design a provide guidelines for people how to prevent from getting sick in the first place and what to do to minimize their spread if one does get infected.

If one wants to continue with the lockdown mentality, then the only time to make sense to reopen the economy is when we have a vaccine ready. But by then, people wouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck, they'd be living gov't subsidy to subsidy.

And if we agree that we ARE going to reopen the economy BEFORE a vaccine becomes available, then reopening now vs. 3weeks later makes lil difference in spread but HUGE impact on the economy.

We already screwed up the prevention of spread thanks to WHO and China of their attempt to play down the seriousness of the disease. Now the effect of lockdown on the economy is just as serious. Let's not screw that up again.

The lockdown was just to flatten the curve. Now that the curve has been flattened, we can start "unlocking". But doing that all at once would be foolish, so it has to be done in phases.

The next goal is not to "flatten the curve" but to try to avoid another point where a new "curve" needs to be "flattened". AKA a "second wave". So measures still need to be put in place that aren't a total lockdown, but some sort of controls, like limited gatherings, masks, etc. Economy will still be affected for a while, but not as bad as it was for the last couple months.

I don't know why anyone in their right mind would argue against this, so I just have to assume whoever does, just isn't in their right mind...

[twdm]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

Or maybe they can just permaban you anyways?

There have been smaller scale lockdown in the past tho, like with Ebola

Lockdown worked with ebola because of the high mortality rates. Most people infected likely die within 2 weeks of getting it vs the millions of asymptomatic carriers carrying it for weeks on end. Infections with high mortality generally do not last because they quickly kill their reservoir.

If quarantine was so effective then why did Italy still have so many new cases throughout march, april and into may? They started country-wide lockdowns yet infection rates did not sharply drop like the "models" predicted. The downtrend replicates a natural progression of any seasonal respiratory infection. Zero flattening of the curve. Speaking of devil, which country which imposed lockdowns showed this flattening of the curve phenomena? Right. Zero. Nada.

[Hondaracer]

There will never been a shutdown like this again.

They will let people die as opposed to going through this again.

[StylinRed]

There'll be lessons learned from this, as with anything, I doubt they would refrain from lockdowns again, depends on the next Bug... a weakened economy is better than no economy if the health system is overrun and the workforce is sick/dying/dead

[twitchyzero]

Bruce Aylward of CHO still refusing after being summoned by Ottawa

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/kel...honest-answers

[StylinRed]

That's so bullshit, he shouldn't have a choice except maybe on when to appear

[unit]

Originally Posted by twdm

List me a single medical trial that shows the superiority of lockdown to no lockdown. Yea I thought so, because there is zero evidence what we're doing now is more effective than doing nothing. It has never been done before. So saying what we did prevented catastrophe has zero proof in the medical world. It is all based on assumption and conjecture. If you can find me one randomized controlled trial supporting what is happening now, you can permaban me.

are you making the case against the effectiveness of social distancing? i mean, how is it exactly that you think any of the countries that are having declining new cases managed to do that otherwise?

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

There will never been a shutdown like this again.

They will let people die as opposed to going through this again.

That's because people these days are super soft. Just imagine what whould happen if there was a draft.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by twdm

Lockdown worked with ebola because of the high mortality rates. Most people infected likely die within 2 weeks of getting it vs the millions of asymptomatic carriers carrying it for weeks on end. Infections with high mortality generally do not last because they quickly kill their reservoir.

If quarantine was so effective then why did Italy still have so many new cases throughout march, april and into may? They started country-wide lockdowns yet infection rates did not sharply drop like the "models" predicted. The downtrend replicates a natural progression of any seasonal respiratory infection. Zero flattening of the curve. Speaking of devil, which country which imposed lockdowns showed this flattening of the curve phenomena? Right. Zero. Nada.

Lockdown was a last resort method to get all the people's attention; whether they like it or not.

It has been a long while since WWII and last pandemic at a global scale with such spread. SARS, the last major pandemic didn't have anywhere close of a reach vs. what we have now. So, most would simply ignore.

How else do you get all the people who have been nothing but calm, peace and political correctness to know that the shit is real? Taiwan and HK were kinda ok because they were hit HARD during SARS and their citizens knew firsthand that they have to be very proactive regardless what the gov't do.

Taiwan was able to succeed in defending this virus not just because the decision the Taiwanese gov't took, but also people were aware of the severity of the situation and made appropriate choices/supports.

So, I think an initial lockdown made sense. You get people attention that we are at WAR with this virus and should act as such. Now that people get the idea and what they need to do, we can start going to the next phase, reopen while altering certain aspects of our life/work until a vaccine is developed.

A continuous lockdown makes very little sense at this stage. The potential limit on spread (and its associated costs) comparing to the devastation it'd cause to the economy... you take the lesser evil.

[Amuse]

Originally Posted by 1337

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vanc...ds-coronavirus

Beaches were packed...

Police should just go and hand out some $1000 social distancing tickets.

[westopher]

Maybe they can borrow one of the 300 cops they have on the lowered car task force.