coronavirus discussion

[stylez2k4]

Originally Posted by quasi

You don't think the Federal Government can fast track in a pandemic if they want to? We could easily build a facility to make vaccines in 11 months if the funding was there and the Govt. was behind it to allow for a fast track build. The reason everything takes so long is because of permits and approvals, you don't think they could influence that to happen quickly in a situation like this? We can build a new hospital with 100's of rooms from the ground up in 14 months without expediting the build, you don't think we can design and build a laboratory/production facility in 11 months expidited?

There is absolutely no comparison in building a pharmaceutical facility that can produce millions of vials to a hospital with a couple of hundred rooms. Pharmaceutical facility takes years to construct and billions of dollars. You need to construct the facility, procure the necessary equipment, hire and train your personnel, qualify your equipment, validate your process, and have it approved by Health Canada. All of this during pandemic.

I work for a pharmaceutical firm and we had trouble procuring cleanroom supplies (e.g. gloves, masks), cleaning supplies (e.g. Quaternary ammonium, alcohol), and vials because everything was in short supply. We wanted new equipment installed but no one would come on-site for installation and validation because of travel restrictions.

How long does a new drug normally take, test, human trials ect. to get approved after it's already made? years right? How long did the covid vaccines take to create and get approved? Less than a year right? Wait, but that can't be done yet here we have it, how so?

Technically the COVID-19 vaccines are not approved, they are granted emergency use authorization.

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

In b4 “Hondaracer isn’t a scientist!!”

But my wife’s old company which made a fairly complicated medical device which is inserted into your body had a very nice office/manufacturering facility in the lower mainland. This also included a “clean room” which the assembly is done in. Now this is a smaller private company but this clean room which isn’t that big took months and months to build then you need to test and certify if I believe before you can actually start using it

Again you are demonstrating your complete ignorance of pharmaceutical manufacturing. I agree that you can construct a cleanroom and have it certified within a couple of months. However, you are discounting basically everything else that relates to pharmaceutical manufacturing.

[GGnoRE]

Originally Posted by pastarocket

Yeah, Turd is doing an awful job with Covid purchases and distribution.

Having said that, I believe that we should not let "Erin the Tool" off the hook either. The Conservatives, the official Opposition party in Canada, under Erin the Tool put some of their attention on this issue recently.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/o-to...hurs-1.5310842

lol what? You can criticize O'toole for other things but why should O'toole be on the hook for a vaccine distribution plan that he did not directly oversee? Unless both parties were given equal opportunities at creating and rolling out a vaccine distribution, how could you say the Cons under O'toole would've done worse?

Originally Posted by pastarocket

Really??? Erin the Tool politicizing a sporting event in the winter Olympics in China right in the middle of a pandemic? He is calling the government to ask the IOC to relocate the next winter Olympics from China to another country because of alleged crimes against a minority group in China.

Talk about knowing the priorities in Canada now. Erin the Tool thinks that Canadians really care about where the next winter Olympics will be held in 2024 compared to the pandemic??

You don't think the opposition party can multi-task and raise attention to multiple issues at the same time? You might not care but I do care about where the next Olympics are held. It should not be held in China similar to how the 1936 Summer Olympics should never have been held in Berlin, hosted by Nazi regime, under Adolf Hitler who saw it as an opportunity to promote his government and ideals of racial supremacy. Prior to the 1936 Olympics, Germany has already shown its anti-sematic colors. Have you read about the genocide (mass rape, sterilization, torture, concentration camps etc.) being carried out against the Uighurs before calling it an "alleged crime"? You also do know that China is detaining two Canadian civilians as hostage for over two years as an act of hostage diplomacy? There are many parallels between CCP and Nazi Germany. For one, they want to destroy democracy around the world. First its Hong Kong, similar to how it was first Poland, and next is Taiwan etc. This is not a small issue and if Canada wants to be a world leader, we need to step up and push our allies to confront China together.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by stylez2k4

There is absolutely no comparison in building a pharmaceutical facility that can produce millions of vials to a hospital with a couple of hundred rooms. Pharmaceutical facility takes years to construct and billions of dollars. You need to construct the facility, procure the necessary equipment, hire and train your personnel, qualify your equipment, validate your process, and have it approved by Health Canada. All of this during pandemic.

I work for a pharmaceutical firm and we had trouble procuring cleanroom supplies (e.g. gloves, masks), cleaning supplies (e.g. Quaternary ammonium, alcohol), and vials because everything was in short supply. We wanted new equipment installed but no one would come on-site for installation and validation because of travel restrictions.



Technically the COVID-19 vaccines are not approved, they are granted emergency use authorization.



Again you are demonstrating your complete ignorance of pharmaceutical manufacturing. I agree that you can construct a cleanroom and have it certified within a couple of months. However, you are discounting basically everything else that relates to pharmaceutical manufacturing.

It’s cute that you pick apart my posts on some abstract level when the basis of it is just a generalization from my relationships with the people involved in that process. But then you make it sound like I’m trying to come off as some expert in the field.

Of course I’m ignorant to it. I didn’t construct it, I wasn’t there, outside of the general construction aspects I have no inside knowledge of assembling one. My experience is based on a first hand account by Somone who also does not understand every aspect of said procedures.

Why not grace us with your infinite knowledge on the subject? You seem to be the real expert.

[quasi]

Originally Posted by stylez2k4

There is absolutely no comparison in building a pharmaceutical facility that can produce millions of vials to a hospital with a couple of hundred rooms. Pharmaceutical facility takes years to construct and billions of dollars. You need to construct the facility, procure the necessary equipment, hire and train your personnel, qualify your equipment, validate your process, and have it approved by Health Canada. All of this during pandemic.

Lol, I'm sure you know all about production of vaccines but the fact you actually think it costs billions of dollars to construct a lab shows what little you actually know about the cost of construction.

You realize they are building the new St Pauls Hospital in Vancouver including all furnishings for 2 billion right? I'll give you a lab is going to have some expensive equipment more so than a hospital but I'm talking about a significant sized hospital like top 15 largest in Canada around 550 rooms with a footprint bigger than a multiple football fields and from what I remember around 10 stories high. How big of a lab you think we need?

https://www.on-sitemag.com/construct...te/1003971939/

You're right I have no idea about how long after construction it would take to get up and running after completed, I wouldn't assume years but I'll take your word for it lol.

They are currently building a lab in Saskatoon at the University of Sask. but like I said I feel they left it way to long to get started.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...rial-1.5899559

[stylez2k4]

Originally Posted by quasi

Lol, I'm sure you know all about production of vaccines but the fact you actually think it costs billions of dollars to construct a lab shows what little you actually know about the cost of construction.

A pharmaceutical manufacturing facility is not a lab. The complexity of a manufacturing site far exceeds that of a lab.

You realize they are building the new St Pauls Hospital in Vancouver including all furnishings for 2 billion right? I'll give you a lab is going to have some expensive equipment more so than a hospital but I'm talking about a significant sized hospital like top 15 largest in Canada around 550 rooms with a footprint bigger than a multiple football fields and from what I remember around 10 stories high. How big of a lab you think we need?

https://www.on-sitemag.com/construct...te/1003971939/

Not comparable in terms of the facilities and equipment required.

You're right I have no idea about how long after construction it would take to get up and running after completed, I wouldn't assume years but I'll take your word for it lol.

They are currently building a lab in Saskatoon at the University of Sask. but like I said I feel they left it way to long to get started.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...rial-1.5899559

They are a long long way from producing anything. Their product just entered into phase 1 trial.

[twitchyzero]

so moderna already had the facilities, training, equipment, mass distribution networks in place 6mos ago? what are they doing that we are not?

not that they aren't hurdles but i'm not getting the sense of urgency within canada to end this pandemic

whatever we tried in the past year isn't sustainable long term

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by stylez2k4

A pharmaceutical manufacturing facility is not a lab. The complexity of a manufacturing site far exceeds that of a lab.



Not comparable in terms of the facilities and equipment required.



They are a long long way from producing anything. Their product just entered into phase 1 trial.

Great input bro, will read again

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

so moderna already had the facilities, training, equipment, mass distribution networks in place 6mos ago? what are they doing that we are not?

not that they aren't hurdles but i'm not getting the sense of urgency within canada to end this pandemic

whatever we tried in the past year isn't sustainable long term

The are a company that manufactures vaccines. The equipment used to make vaccines is not off the shelf. You can't just place an order on Amazon. Knee jerk reactions is not what be need. We need long term plans. Either we pay companies to open up plants in Canada or we rely on government funded research. I don't think the cons would have been happy if 3-4 years ago JT decided to spend billions on research facility's and factories.

[GLOW]

i got you quasi, i know a nurse at st pauls...she'll know how many billions it really is

[quasi]

Originally Posted by stylez2k4

A pharmaceutical manufacturing facility is not a lab. The complexity of a manufacturing site far exceeds that of a lab.



Not comparable in terms of the facilities and equipment required.

This we can agree on, they aren't comparable in cost either the Hospital due to the shear size will cost far more then any facility we'd build to manufacturer vaccines. I stand by what I said, you might know about the manufacturing of vaccines but your knowledge on the cost of building the facilities to produce them is limited. It wouldn't cost billions of dollars, no way no how I really think you just pulled that number out of the air.

[twitchyzero]

GSK has vaccine production in toronto, also there's another in QC city

Both the co-chairs of the [covid-19 vaccine] task force have conflicts of interest with companies producing the vaccines and the terms of the contracts are being kept secret. Among other things, we don’t know what price Canada is paying for each vaccine, what the timeline for delivery is, whether there are penalties for delays and how the contracts are being enforced, if at all.

https://theconversation.com/the-root...decades-154792

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by quasi

This we can agree on, they aren't comparable in cost either the Hospital due to the shear size will cost far more then any facility we'd build to manufacturer vaccines. I stand by what I said, you might know about the manufacturing of vaccines but your knowledge on the cost of building the facilities to produce them is limited. It wouldn't cost billions of dollars, no way no how I really think you just pulled that number out of the air.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5518734/

50 to 700M USD
Example: It took Pfizer five years and 600M USD to build a manufacturing site in the US [17]

Vaccine manufacturing overview

Vaccine manufacture is one of the most challenging industries. Even the most basic manufacturing steps necessary to produce vaccines in a manner that is safe, effective, and consistent over the life cycle of a vaccine are difficult to execute [7]. Outcomes can vary widely due to the nearly infinite combinations of biological variability in basic starting materials, the microorganism itself, the environmental condition of the microbial culture, the knowledge and experience of the manufacturing technician, and the steps involved in the purification processes. To add to the complexity, the methods used to analyze the biological processes and antigens resulting from vaccine production often have high inherent variability. Failure to manage these risks can result in costly product recalls, and suspensions and penalties may be assessed if a manufacturer fails to fulfil supply agreements. In addition, lack of supply can disrupt routine immunization programs and negatively impact national public health outcomes.

[westopher]

I’m generalizing, but there’s a lot of talk about just making vaccines here from those that said things like “I don’t trust vaccines that come to market that quickly, we don’t know long term side effects.”
Canada was promised a lot of vaccines from various manufactures that seemed like they would have been here in a near instant after approval. Approval happened far quicker than expected leaving no real time to plan for such a vast manufacturing ramp up in a facility that didn’t exist yet. This has been all guessing and gambles from the get go and Canada has done moderately ok. It could have just as easily gone extremely well, or absolutely fucking terrible. We can talk about how fast Belgium is vaccinating people but in the same breath it’s worth mentioning they have one of the highest death rates per capita in the world, if not the highest of any real populated country for that number to be a sample size that’s comparable to Canada. Would we still want to trade for that position?

[twitchyzero]

another 600+ new in BC
highest daily since 1/7

[6793026]

^ cause of superbowl gatherings?

[JDMDreams]

^ Church gatherings? Penthouse parties? Kelowna protests? Reopen all the economies ??? Profit

[Teriyaki]

People definitely starting to flout the rules. Parties being busted left and right, but for every one busted there's likely many many smaller gatherings that are getting by unnoticed.

Covid fatigue is real. The social gathering ban has been in place for how long now?

[twitchyzero]

just anecdotal but saw quite a few CNY gatherings on my feed
i think people stopped caring when they banned mental welfare indefinitely

[spoon.ek9]

Got the second shot today. Ready to have my organs controlled mobile styles via 5g by that evil bastard Bill Gates now.

Jokes aside, didn't get any of the sleepiness I did from the first shot

[JDMDreams]

Because they reopened everything, you mean my boss can tell me to go meet with random strangers for 8 hours a day to do business but I can't visit my family?

[SSM_DC5]

Originally Posted by spoon.ek9

Got the second shot today. Ready to have my organs controlled mobile styles via 5g by that evil bastard Bill Gates now.

Jokes aside, didn't get any of the sleepiness I did from the first shot

Report back in 24 hours

[spoon.ek9]

well it's next morning now and i'm fine. arm is sore. apparently yesterday 4 people in my department called in sick lol.

[SkunkWorks]

Originally Posted by spoon.ek9

well it's next morning now and i'm fine. arm is sore.

Try to not grip so hard, or consider switching arms.

[Teriyaki]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...ling-1.5315741

So, with the new variants, even if we maintain our status quo of "zero social interactions" we're going to get clobbered.

What could we possibly do, looks like a no-win situation aside from buckling down and hope you don't get anything until everyone's vaccinated.

With the new variants, it's going to wreck havoc on "survivor" areas like us that because of survivor bias I think. Like, everyone's used to their routines now and because it's gotten them this far with no ill-effect even if the new variants are that much more infectious.

[twitchyzero]

predicting 3rd wave might happen in weeks spiking much harder than this winter assuming ease of restrictions and continued vaccination shortages

does anyone have the luxury of working from anywhere and just gonna go ride it out in New Zealand for a few years?