Quote:
Originally Posted by Traum
(Post 9024635)
You are quite correct that officially, no death has been directly tied to any of the known COVID vaccines at this point. The only way you're gonna get something like that is if the person has an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine, but all vaccination sites would already have countermeasures ready to treat that.
There have been 19 deaths in Hong Kong where the deceased person has recently been vaccinated for COVID. 17 of those had been vaccinated with China's Sinovac vaccine. As you said, all of them of at least some sort of chronic illness, usually multiple issues. IIRC, most of them are elderly people in the 60+ range. Again, I am going to point out that Sinovac's official recommendation is to only use the vaccine on those who are 18 - 59.
Obviously you refuse to acknowledge that the Sinovac vaccine can lead to death. You also think Hong Kong's handling of COVID has been strict and transparent, and I will strongly disagree on both accounts. Sinovac vaccines should not have been used on the elderly at all, and there have been 17 deaths to show that the vaccine is not safe for those elderly people with chronic illnesses. It cannot be proven that the vaccine is directly responsible for these 17 people's death, but what we do know is, the vaccine will trigger an immune response in every patient who was vaccinated. Is it too far fetched to logically speculate that the vaccine-induced immune response is too much for the bodies of people with chronic illnesses to handle?
To me, what you are saying sounds a lot like a person has been stabbed in his aorta by a robber, and the doctor insists that the person died of blood loss instead of dying from the stabbing. Technically the doctor is right.
Lastly, I will say again that Hong Kong's low COVID numbers are there in spite of the gov's inaptitude, not because of its handling of the virus. The credit belongs to discipine of the general public.
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I agree with some of what you're saying, but disagree with others.
It's true that Sinovac isn't recommended for 60+. It's weird that HK is promoting it for those people.
It also seems quite apparent that they are trying to "promote" that vaccine for some reason. Before abandoning it completely, they're already testing if it can be combined with other vaccines. Some have speculated that this is some way of them looking for "any way possible to justify its use" but I think this is in preparation to switch people over once they leave it behind. If you got your first shot of Sinovac, and we no longer offer it, you can get your second shot of BNT.
The way the numbers pan out - 17 deaths after Sinovac, 2 deaths after BNT definitely will lead you to the theory that one is more dangerous than the other. But keep in mind that these numbers are extremely low. A few thousand people got vaccines, a few dozen died, and more often they got one vaccine over the other. This means nothing in the grand scheme of things. They can look into it and find out if there's causation between it. If you don't trust HK to do it, other countries will. Other countries have vaccinated a fuck of a lot more people with Sinovac than HK ever will.
380,000 people in HK have gotten the Sinovac vaccine at least one dose. In Chile, 13,352,602 have received one. Indonesia 17,275,001 have gotten one.
How many deaths after vaccine in Chile? Indonesia? That should set you on a path to study, if you think there's something to this story.
It's not about "refusing to acknowledge" something. There's just nothing to acknowledge yet. Just a few people died after getting a vaccine. Well a few people died of a heart attack after taking the MTR. And a few more died of a heart attack after taking the bus. Does this mean the bus is more dangerous?
Finally, I 100% agree that early on, it was the people of Hong Kong that prevented Covid from being as big of a disaster as it could have been. The medical workers in particular started a union from scratch, and went on strike until the border to China was closed.
However since then, all the policies have been set by the government, and have been effective (some policies more than others). Closing the borders to certain countries, like right now 3 countries are completely banned from entering the country. They shut down airlines that bring people with covid into the country. We have a 3 week quarantine for most countries, which is longer than anywhere else in the world. Not many are as strict as HK when it comes to immigration.
The mandatory quarantine itself has been proven to find cases that otherwise would have been out in the public. After that gym breakout, they forced hundreds of people to quarantine, and found a bunch of positives there. Those people would have been spreading it through the community, and there would probably be another wave. Instead we're at like 0-2 local cases a day, mostly from known sources.
