coronavirus discussion

[StylinRed]

Oh no imma have to go to the movies before they're packed again

[JD¹³]

Originally Posted by JDMDreams

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...r-19-1.6216724

"Hockey games, concerts, movie theatres back to 100% capacity for fully vaccinated people in B.C."

Henry said that by ensuring only fully vaccinated people are allowed into more populated venues, the risk of transmission will be reduced. "We are not seeing transmission in those settings where the vaccine card is used, where people are checking vaccine status."

Yeah no shit Bonnie you weren't seeing transmission in those areas anyway even before people were getting vaccinated, because they're primarily attended by healthy young adults. VCH CMO admitted as such in the video I posted. This is a blatantly misleading statement and further coercion from this bureaucrat. Pardon me, "incentivizing" is the word they like to use for removing people's freedoms with admittedly no public health justification. Political bullshit. Sad sad times and I can't believe people support this.

Originally Posted by inv4zn

Again, misleading. I assume you're referring to Sweden and Denmark, who pulled Moderna out of precaution for young people only and instead giving them Pfizer.

In their statements they say they paused Moderna due to increased risk of heart inflammation shown in young people, but the risk of the same condition is 6x more likely from getting Covid itself, and to get the Pfizer shot.

FWIW this is the same reason Moderna is not approved for <18 in the US.

His post isn't misleading at all, in fact you prove him right with your last statement. How many times did the Canadian government change the safe ages for AZ? At least once if not twice after it really hurt some people. Remember when they said mixing doses was OK and now it's a crapshoot as to where that will allow you to travel? How long did they ignore the side effects from Moderna in young men? They still are because in Canada they continue giving it to anyone 12+. Moderna has 3x the active mRNA of Pfizer which is why young people with strong immune systems are having such reactions. It's a temporary autoimmune disorder! The possibility of scar tissue in the heart is no joke, it will cut people's lives short down the line. So no, you can't blame people for being hesitant in all this.

[inv4zn]

Originally Posted by JD¹³

His post isn't misleading at all, in fact you prove him right with your last statement. How many times did the Canadian government change the safe ages for AZ? At least once if not twice after it really hurt some people. Remember when they said mixing doses was OK and now it's a crapshoot as to where that will allow you to travel? How long did they ignore the side effects from Moderna in young men? They still are because in Canada they continue giving it to anyone 12+. Moderna has 3x the active mRNA of Pfizer which is why young people with strong immune systems are having such reactions. It's a temporary autoimmune disorder! The possibility of scar tissue in the heart is no joke, it will cut people's lives short down the line. So no, you can't blame people for being hesitant in all this.

It's misleading in the sense that he took an entire article and truncated it into 10 words with no context.

My issue is you somehow expect scientists to know the answer to everything and every possible scenario and when they make changes to policies based on new information, the pitchforks come out. Then there's the fact that this has been politicized to shit now, and it's just making things worse.

Lastly, I understand the hesitancy. But antivaxxers are always spewing random statistics like 0.03% mortality rate! natural immunity is 10x better! But they conveniently ignore the statistical risk of myocarditis due to the vaccine, which is actually lower than getting myocarditis due to covid. I donno, you make your own decisions.

[westopher]

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/beta.ctv...10976.amp.html

EDMONTON -- As revelations emerge about the Edmonton Oilers' only player still unvaccinated against COVID-19 developing myocarditis, an Edmonton cardiologist wants you to know your risk of dealing with the same heart condition.
On Sunday, Oilers head coach Dave Tippett told reporters that it's believed forward Josh Archibald, 28, developed myocarditis because of an asymptomatic case of COVID-19 that initially went undetected over the summer.

Archibald joins his teammate Alex Stalock on the injured reserve, who is also sidelined indefinitely with myocarditis after a case of COVID-19.
Myocarditis is a term that refers to inflammation of the heart muscle.
According to Dr. Ian Paterson, a cardiologist with the Mazankowski Alberta Heart Institute, the most common cause of the condition is a virus like COVID-19.
"Myocarditis related to COVID, related to the virus itself, is said to effect approximately five to 15 per cent of people who have been sick with the virus," Dr. Paterson told CTV News Edmonton on Monday.

That's a 10,000 fold greater risk of getting myocarditis from the virus, we think, than from the vaccine," said Dr. Paterson. "So absolutely we think that the vaccine will protect people from the virus and getting myocarditis from the virus."
Dr. Paterson said while being vaccinated against COVID-19 greatly reduces the risk of getting the disease, experts don't yet know if myocarditis is less likely to occur from breakthrough infections of COVID-19.
Last week, the Ontario government recommended people between the ages of 18 and 24 receive the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine instead of Moderna because of an observed increase of cases of myocarditis.

While the prognosis for people with COVID-19-related myocarditis is generally good, Dr. Paterson said it's recommended that physical sports be suspended for three to six months for people with the heart condition.
"Myocarditis related to virus, including COVID, we think are self-limited, meaning that people do expect a complete recovery of their heart," he said. "There is, however, concerns about athletes returning to play after they've had myocarditis."
"It's an injury to the heart," he said. "It's causing some inflammation of the heart muscle and there's a risk that if you're stimulating the body and, you know, exercising and having a lot of adrenaline pumping through you, that it could irritate the heart."
On Sunday, Tippett said Archibald is still receiving multiple medical tests and there's no timeline for his return.

It’s so convenient how the arguments against the side effects of the vaccine always leave out the side effects of the virus.
It’s always old people this and comorbidity that, yet here we are with literally one of the worlds top athletes suffering from these effects.
That’s the thing about stats. You can ignore as many of them as you want to paint the picture you want, but it won’t make you right.

[Hondaracer]

No one ever seems to mention that the chance of even catching Covid is like 2%? Lol a serious case in the 0.000 range?

Adrian dix always spouting off about 40% higher chance of ending up in hospital unvaccinated, however less than 3% of BC’s population has contracted a confirmed case in the entire 2 years of Covid. Pretty good odds If you ask me

So yea, the chances of having heart issues related to Covid are higher than that experienced with the vaccine. However the chances of even catching Covid are minuscule.

I’m sure anyone who got myocarditis from the vaccine and potentially shortened their life is just happy that “did their part”

[westopher]

Pretty shitty odds if you consider what was sacrificed since March 2020 to get to that number.
Having concerts, full capacity events, travel, etc going back to normal isn’t going to reduce those chances.

[westopher]

I can do the math if you want.
If you have a 10000 fold greater risk of getting myocarditis from covid, you have only a 3% chance of getting covid.
That leaves you with a 300 fold greater risk of getting myocarditis from covid, if the chances of transmission don’t increase.
Being that about 20% of our population is accounting for 80% of that 3% chance, seems like being unvaccinated that risk of getting covid will substantially increase, no?
It’s all math, the numbers are all there, but you need to take the stats in front of you and go deeper if you want the real answer.

[inv4zn]

Why do you think the chances of catching covid is so low in your bubble that is BC? Why is it that serious cases are even lower? Just look a little deeper, you're so close to the answer.

The fact is that a lot of what antivaxxers are saying is purely because we live in BC (and even Canada, arguably). Having a somewhat competent government that listens to science, a significant population of responsible people following health protocols and getting the shot has allowed them to downplay this whole thing like it's nothing. Then they go stand in front of hospitals with misspelled signs and allusions to the holocaust. The result of stupidity and entitlement in one ugly group. The numbers shift dramatically if you look east of us, even more so if you look south, and greatly so if you look at other countries.

That 'tyranny' you yell so loudly about? Yeah that's actually helping you. The 'sheep' doing things they're asked? Same, helping you.

1/500 Americans have died because of Covid...think Americans are liking their odds?

[JD¹³]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

My issue is you somehow expect scientists to know the answer to everything and every possible scenario and when they make changes to policies based on new information, the pitchforks come out. Then there's the fact that this has been politicized to shit now, and it's just making things worse.
The problem isn't the scientists doing the best they can it's that policies are being made based on politics, not the data.

Lastly, I understand the hesitancy. But antivaxxers are always spewing random statistics like 0.03% mortality rate! natural immunity is 10x better! But they conveniently ignore the statistical risk of myocarditis due to the vaccine, which is actually lower than getting myocarditis due to covid*.

* if someone is infected and has noticeable to strong symptoms - the vast majority of people have been asymptomatic. Don't lump hesitant people trying to make the best informed decision they can as anti-vaxxers (like some people in this thread are), it's very disingenuous when there is substantial evidence of the mRNA vaccines doing harm.

Westopher - there will always be outliers. There are elderly people who've been on ventilators but survived as well.

[68style]

What’s the hesitancy over though?

You’re making an informed decision right?

The information is here for you.

It’s significantly more dangerous to get Covid than to get the vaccine. The math and science both support it. End of discussion.

So where’s the hesitancy over an informed decision knowing this? Knowing the above and still not getting it now means you’ve transitioned into antivax by default as there’s nothing left to logically be hesitant about.

You don't like Moderna? Get Pfizer. It's so simple.

[westopher]

I’d like to see evidence of the MRNA vaccines being more likely to produce negative side effects over the chances of COVID producing those same side effects, even adjusted for likelihood of actually catching COVID.
It’s like not stopping at a stop sign because you were rear ended. Is there a possibility of a car accident if you stop there? Absolutely. Do the chances of an accident go up exponentially if you run every stop sign on the way to work? Absolutely.
There are no sure things in life, but when your faced with two potential negative outcomes you need to have an understanding of the likelihood and severity of the consequences of each option.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by 68style

What’s the hesitancy over though?

You’re making an informed decision right?

The information is here for you.

It’s significantly more dangerous to get Covid than to get the vaccine. The math and science both support it. End of discussion.

So where’s the hesitancy over an informed decision knowing this? Knowing the above and still not getting it now means you’ve transitioned into antivax by default as there’s nothing left to logically be hesitant about.

You don't like Moderna? Get Pfizer. It's so simple.

Didn’t have that option. It’s nice to dream up hypotheticals in hindsight but all most of us could do was pray for was getting the same vaccine for the second dose as the first.

After all said and done not exactly thrilled with getting Moderna. And what now? I’m gonna get a booster of something different when that’s required? It wasn’t really a decision more than a forced choice. Not getting vaccinated wasn’t a choice if you want to participate in society, stay employed etc.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

No one ever seems to mention that the chance of even catching Covid is like 2%? Lol a serious case in the 0.000 range?

Adrian dix always spouting off about 40% higher chance of ending up in hospital unvaccinated, however less than 3% of BC’s population has contracted a confirmed case in the entire 2 years of Covid. Pretty good odds If you ask me

So yea, the chances of having heart issues related to Covid are higher than that experienced with the vaccine. However the chances of even catching Covid are minuscule.

I’m sure anyone who got myocarditis from the vaccine and potentially shortened their life is just happy that “did their part”

Dude, do you really needed to be reminded of how things initially played out in Wuhan, India, and a few other hard hit places at the start of the pandemic?

It is exactly as inv4zn has said -- we only have this 2% chance to catch COVID over the course of the past 20 months (give or take?) precisely because Canada / BC took mitigation measures to keep a lid on the disease. Everywhere you look in Canada -- everywhere in Alberta except for Calgary and Edmonton, SK, east Fraser Health Region, northern BC now -- wherever there are low general vaccination rates, COVID rates spike, and hospitals get overwhelmed.

[whitev70r]

One side effect of vaccine that doesn't often get mentioned here (probably because most on the board are XY) but has any of your SO (or sister, mom, or XX friends) experienced change in menstrual period. Many anecdotal stories about that.

[inv4zn]

Originally Posted by JD¹³

The problem isn't the scientists doing the best they can it's that policies are being made based on politics, not the data.

This is a bit loaded, as scientists aren't politicians and therefore not in a position to make policies. The politicians take what scientists say, take other measures such as economics, legality, and make policy. I've given you the benefit of the doubt here, if you're talking about "data" written by chiropractors on online blogs, then...

* if someone is infected and has noticeable to strong symptoms - the vast majority of people have been asymptomatic.

Please show me how you know "vast majority of people have been asymptomatic." Fraser health was always get tested only if you show symptoms. Since according to the BC Dashboard 790,074 people out of a million have been tested, I'm going to call you a liar on that one.

Don't lump hesitant people trying to make the best informed decision they can as anti-vaxxers (like some people in this thread are), it's very disingenuous when there is substantial evidence of the mRNA vaccines doing harm.

I have no issue with people trying to make the best informed decision, in fact I encourage it. My issue is the "best informed decision" is pretty clear, because you know what else there is substantial evidence of? The negative aspects of catching Covid. Also I'm inclined to argue the evidence of mRNA vaccines doing harm is not substantial, and any such evidence ALL include clauses that still they should get vaccinated because the pros outweigh the risks.

And since you're not anti-vax, if you don't want the mRNA, get the AZ shot then.

[JD¹³]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

This is a bit loaded, as scientists aren't politicians and therefore not in a position to make policies. The politicians take what scientists say, take other measures such as economics, legality, and make policy. I've given you the benefit of the doubt here, if you're talking about "data" written by chiropractors on online blogs, then...
No I'm talking about the data and contact tracing since March 2020 showing that all the places people are being restricted from are not high sources of transmission and that the Medical Officers of this province (and others) are ignoring that and making a Passport policy to coerce people to get vaccinated or not be allowed to participate in society. When it has no public health benefit but is being sold as such the passport is fundamentally wrong. There's no argument against that when the CMO's go against the scientific data and lie to the public. Again, go back a few pages and watch the VCH CMO say this in a recorded internal video meeting.

Please show me how you know "vast majority of people have been asymptomatic." Fraser health was always get tested only if you show symptoms. Since according to the BC Dashboard 790,074 people out of a million have been tested, I'm going to call you a liar on that one.
60 seconds on Google would answer this for you from unlimited sources. Also you're misinterpreting that 790k number, look at the total number of tests (over 4 million) and know that people are being tested for all numbers of reasons and multiple times (work, travel, et al). Anyone who had a cold, flu, or general illness may have gotten a test and still only 198k have popped positive for COVID.

I have no issue with people trying to make the best informed decision, in fact I encourage it. My issue is the "best informed decision" is pretty clear, because you know what else there is substantial evidence of? The negative aspects of catching Covid. Also I'm inclined to argue the evidence of mRNA vaccines doing harm is not substantial, and any such evidence ALL include clauses that still they should get vaccinated because the pros outweigh the risks.
Thousands and thousands of serious side-effects reported worldwide isn't substantial harm? A hesitant person is deciding between running the gauntlet of even getting COVID and actually getting sick, or definitively running the gauntlet by injecting the vaccine. And people are for forcing option B on them through legislation.

And since you're not anti-vax, if you don't want the mRNA, get the AZ shot then.

Dumb final comment.

[68style]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Didn’t have that option. It’s nice to dream up hypotheticals in hindsight but all most of us could do was pray for was getting the same vaccine for the second dose as the first.

After all said and done not exactly thrilled with getting Moderna. And what now? I’m gonna get a booster of something different when that’s required? It wasn’t really a decision more than a forced choice. Not getting vaccinated wasn’t a choice if you want to participate in society, stay employed etc.

How is it hypothetical, I'm not talking to 6 months ago you in my post? I was talking to buddy guy today. It wasn't a choice for the world to have COVID circulating around it either, so we have 2 shitty choices... do something to control a virus or let the virus control us. Nobody wants to take unnecessary medication, but China fucked up, the whole world got fucked and here we are.

My elementary school friend has a PhD in biochemistry, a company he's a controlling officer of is in the final stages of development for a drug to defeat esophagus cancer (I bet you'd be scrambling to take that if you had it!) and he got his first shot AZ as soon as it came out and MODERNA for his second shot. He was down in the USA recently for work and decided while he was down there just to cover his bases to get another 3rd shot of MODERNA so that he'd have 2 matching shots.

Completely unconcerned with the risks that are associated... why? Because he looked at the data and he's a scientist and a developer of vaccines/drugs himself and understands this shit at a much higher level than any of us do or ever will.

If that's not an informed decision I don't know what is.

[inv4zn]

Originally Posted by JD¹³

Dumb final comment.

haha ok, antivaxxer.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by 68style

How is it hypothetical, I'm not talking to 6 months ago you in my post? I was talking to buddy guy today. It wasn't a choice for the world to have COVID circulating around it either, so we have 2 shitty choices... do something to control a virus or let the virus control us. Nobody wants to take unnecessary medication, but China fucked up, the whole world got fucked and here we are.

My elementary school friend has a PhD in biochemistry, a company he's a controlling officer of is in the final stages of development for a drug to defeat esophagus cancer (I bet you'd be scrambling to take that if you had it!) and he got his first shot AZ as soon as it came out and MODERNA for his second shot. He was down in the USA recently for work and decided while he was down there just to cover his bases to get another 3rd shot of MODERNA so that he'd have 2 matching shots.

Completely unconcerned with the risks that are associated... why? Because he looked at the data and he's a scientist and a developer of vaccines/drugs himself and understands this shit at a much higher level than any of us do or ever will.

If that's not an informed decision I don't know what is.

Two shitty choices is a good way to sum it up. I’m not anti vax or anti government but I’m certainly not happy the way any of it played out.

[Teriyaki]

Let's just all agree that nobody is happy about any of this.

[whitev70r]

^ Except Moderna and Pfizer ... big pharmaceuticals. They're pretty damn happy.

[JD¹³]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

haha ok, antivaxxer.

Ah yes, ignore the conversation and go to name calling when presented with facts you can't argue. I'm vaccinated, and you don't understand how to interpret the stats that were the basis of your argument Slow clap.

[Hehe]

Just to clarify, I'm not antivaxxer and not only am I fully vaccinated, I actually recommend anyone around me, including my parents to get vaccinated at the earliest date.

The reasoning is simple. The truth is, we don't know shit what these vaccine are going to do to us in the long term. And even the best experts in the world can only tell you their "best educated guesses" about them. There simply isn't enough evidence and data for them to make any conclusive opinion.

As an adult, I can live with whatever consequences of the vaccine, because it's a decision that I made for myself understanding the risks. But it's not the same for the kids. We are making the decisions FOR them. Yes, it's almost always for their best interest in the long run. But I dunno shit now. And even the best expert in the world cannot tell me everything that vaccine would do for us in the long run. When they have the studies done, I'd make an informed decision for my boys. Until then...

[inv4zn]

Originally Posted by JD¹³

Ah yes, ignore the conversation and go to name calling when presented with facts you can't argue. I'm vaccinated, and you don't understand how to interpret the stats that were the basis of your argument Slow clap.

K well maybe put the effort into proper formatting next time so the conversation can actually go on.

No I'm talking about the data and contact tracing since March 2020 showing that all the places people are being restricted from are not high sources of transmission and that the Medical Officers of this province (and others) are ignoring that and making a Passport policy to coerce people to get vaccinated or not be allowed to participate in society. When it has no public health benefit but is being sold as such the passport is fundamentally wrong. There's no argument against that when the CMO's go against the scientific data and lie to the public. Again, go back a few pages and watch the VCH CMO say this in a recorded internal video meeting.

Oh, this is about vaccine passports now? I thought your whole spiel was mRNA vaccines? But ok, let's pretend that's not gaslighting. Indulge me and show me that link with the VCH CMO, I must have missed it. Google didn't turn up anything either.

60 seconds on Google would answer this for you from unlimited sources. Also you're misinterpreting that 790k number, look at the total number of tests (over 4 million) and know that people are being tested for all numbers of reasons and multiple times (work, travel, et al). Anyone who had a cold, flu, or general illness may have gotten a test and still only 198k have popped positive for COVID.

Spend that 60 seconds and find me a source that says "vast majority", or better yet, with a number. I'm not saying asymptomatic carriers don't exist, but it's not the vast majority. Let's look a little deeper into what you said: "People are being tested for all numbers of reasons", which is likely very true. You can pick a number, because any number you pick will just mean the % of positive cases from people that got tested with symptoms will go up in proportion. 1 million of the 4 million tests were due to other requirements? Ok, 198K positive out of 3 million instead. Now who's misinterpreting what? It's also probably safe to assume # of tests doesn't equal # of people, since one person can get tested multiple times. But since it's unlikely one person will count for multiple confirmed cases, the value goes up once again! Also..."only 198K have popped positive"...as if that's somehow a small number. That's a little more than the entire population of Coquitlam.

Thousands and thousands of serious side-effects reported worldwide isn't substantial harm? A hesitant person is deciding between running the gauntlet of even getting COVID and actually getting sick, or definitively running the gauntlet by injecting the vaccine. And people are for forcing option B on them through legislation.

Ok...but what about the thousands and thousands and tens and hundreds of thousands of millions of people who don't have serious side effects, and also are much better protected against covid? 4,927 adverse effects reported in Canada total vs. 2329 CURRENTLY in the hospital with 28644 cumulative deaths. Source is here: https://covid19tracker.ca/

Dumb final comment.

Why? Your entire thing was about mRNA vaccines, until it was suddenly about vaccine passports. How will you deflect this time?

[SkinnyPupp]

If you guys are looking for a vacation, Thailand is about to open up to Canadians

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