coronavirus discussion

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by westopher

The overdose crisis has absolutely decimated the ambulance operations in BC.
Certain people don’t care. But lots do. The unfortunate part is the pushback from the public for things like clean drug supply and other solutions that they don’t like because they feel like addicts inconvenience them. Before my wife worked in labour and delivery she was in medicine at St. Paul’s.
The issue they had was people would OD, spend time in the ER, then move to medicine. People would ask for help to get clean, but then the waiting list for programs would be several months away to actually enter an addictions program. The only option, because you can’t keep a “healthy” person in the hospital for several months, they would have to go “home” whether it was actually a home or the DTES and use up until the time a spot became available, often either dying, or becoming so entrenched back in their drug use they wouldn’t bother going into the treatment.
It’s a fucking joke that we could pay people 2k a month to stay home, even people who didn’t even come close to making 2k a month, but we somehow don’t have the funds to allocate to addictions counselling when we are in this crisis. Again, it’s cause you can’t catch a heroin overdose.
Do I care more about someone dying because someone coughed near them? Honestly, I probably do, but I definitely believe people with addictions issues deserve 100 fold better treatment options.

Would thank this multiple times if I could.

Honestly I’m not trying to downplay Covid at all but Jesus Christ like in reality the ongoing overdose crisis is massive for BC and Canada and it seems like just because it’s “faceless” compared to Covid it gets put on the back burner when in reality the people and industries it effects to a huge degree have a direct impact on the well being and hospital capacity of paramedics, physicians, etc.

There is a reason why their stopoverdosebc.ca ads now feature middle aged Asian people, Indian people, etc. this isn’t some trope designed to stir somthing up in you as the media tends to do, THESE are the people involved in the crisis.

We have to wait for a monthly or quarterly statement that gets swept away in the media regarding the death numbers but 300 Covid case count is shoved down your throat 5 times during a 1 hour new cast? Ffs..

If Covid is over in a year or less, the overdose crisis, at least for BC, will be one of, if not the greatest health crisis this province has ever seen in terms of lives lost and people effected.

This is getting a bit off track but this John Oliver episode is a fantastic watch regarding homelessness and it’s very applicable here in BC and relevant to the drug crisis.

YouTube (Short URL)

People like JDM etc. are so oblivious to these things but the fact is, the vast majority of RS is closer to being a homeless drug addict than being some high powered CEO. A big take away for me from that video was when he says “just because you don’t see someone doesn’t mean they don’t exist”

People are dieing at a crazy rate, and just consider yourself lucky if you haven’t been effected.

[Traum]

The OD crisis is real, and is absolutely a strain on our medical system (and by extension, the province financials) as well. But I don't think it is fair to compare the current COVID death counts to the the OD death counts because that current COVID death count is a result of our 80%+ vaccination rate. If we didn't have that high of a vaccination rate, or if some new strain is capable of evading / defeating the protection that the current vaccines afford us, we're gonna be staring at some very high numbers that will absolutely put the OD death counts into an afterthought.

We are still not sure how "good" Omicron is at making people sick, so it is only natural that it continues to hog the spotlight.

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Be scared!!!
The bad drug crisis has killed 3/4 of the 2 year total Covid deaths in the last 11 months. Effecting almost strictly people aged 19-39. No one cares about that though.

[sonick]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Honestly I’m not trying to downplay Covid at all

Not to say your concerns regarding the opioid crisis are not valid, but honestly do you really think you are not?

I don't see you starting a thread in RS about the overdose crisis in BC. Somehow it seems like you only mention the overdose crisis in the coronoavirus or Canadian Politics threads, often as a strawman argument in a different discussion topic.

[mikemhg]

Man what an absolute WASTE of fucking energy to argue this topic on a forum.

I've become so sick of this conversation about vaccines with friends nowadays. It's come to the point where I simply say "let's not talk about it", if you're not vaccinated I could care the fuck less at this point.

You won't be able to travel anytime soon, if that's the sacrifice you're willing to make for your "values", so be it.

You will not be able to argue these people into submission.

As with everything nowadays, this has become a ideological, culture-war type of issue.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by sonick

Not to say your concerns regarding the opioid crisis are not valid, but honestly do you really think you are not?

I don't see you starting a thread in RS about the overdose crisis in BC. Somehow it seems like you only mention the overdose crisis in the coronoavirus or Canadian Politics threads, often as a strawman argument in a different discussion topic.

Don’t see how they aren’t hand in hand at this point given the severity.

[inv4zn]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Don’t see how they aren’t hand in hand at this point given the severity.

But they're not hand to hand in anyway other than people are dying.

It's not to say the opioid crisis isn't important, but it is the very definition of a strawman argument.

Like, it's as hand in hand as somehow relating police brutality of POC to covid deaths, or gun violence deaths to covid deaths.

[Hakkaboy]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Don’t see how they aren’t hand in hand at this point given the severity.

All you've been doing is downplaying covid. The only difference between your first post on page 1 is now you are comparing it to OD instead of the regular flu.

And yeah, you may have gotten the vaccine shot, and you do wear your mask here and there, but all of your underlying posts is that covid only kills older people, so it's really not a big deal all the while ignoring the fact that covid has killed this many people despite the unprecedented health & safety measures.

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

17 deaths world wide = panic panic panic!!

How many people in the same time frame died from regular flu? hundreds? Thousands?

:/

[Hondaracer]

Nevermind, it’s not worth it.

[white rocket]

RS: COVID is filling up hospital beds
Hondaracer: Here's another major contributor to that same issue
RS: Burn the witch!!

I know I'm playing devil's advocate questioning the narrative but it's this type of conversation swing that I was kind of referring to. I've downplayed COVID because it hasn't affected me or anyone around me for a long shot. That's not to say that it doesn't exist, people aren't dying, it's a serious problem, etc and because of that I've gotten a vaccine, wear masks where I'm instructed to and generally comply with everything asked of me and don't hassle anyone about it and speak up to make a scene just because I believe something different about a certain issue within the entire COVID narrative.

Hondaracer sees the same fear mongering stories that I do and I believe it's overshot and not as accurate as presented. That's all.

The bottom line is if we are all to STFU and get the shot, does that mean that it's shots every 6 months for a long time? And should a person be concerned about that from a health standpoint? I'm really on the fence about that since it's was a different story a year ago (yes, I know, things change rapidly). But really don't know because I'm not a doctor or a creator of vaccines yet I still feel a bit uneasy about it.

[Traum]

Personally, I expect we -- or at least the wealthier western world -- are going to treat this in the same way we treat the flu via annual vaccinations. The virus is already out in the wild (and finding hosts in wildlife as well). It will never be eradicated, and until we can vaccinate well over 80% of the world's population (if not higher, and we know that even a 70% per country vaccination rate is down right impossible), the virus will continue to mutate, and those new variants will come back to bite us (just like how Omicron is sort of doing now).

Now, that is just how we are going to cope with COVID. Currently and in the foreseeable future, we know COVID is significantly more virulent than the flu.

And so I am going to ask White Rocket and Hondaracer as well -- do you have any concerns with our annual flu vaccinations? Are you worried about those from a health's standpoint?

The the world continues to do an ever increasing number of COVID vaccinations, we know how these vaccines are doing from a health and safety point of view. AZ and JJ has a very low chance of blood clotting issues. Pfizer and Moderna has a very low chance of heart inflammation issues if it is administered incorrectly. Overall, our public health experts' view is -- the risks of these vaccines still far outweight the risks of not getting vaccinated.

A lot of people don't bother with getting their annual flu shots. Part of the reason is because they view the flu as something that isn't too deadly. Now with COVID being a lot more virulent than the flu with far more serious consequences in those severe cases, how would people in the world react? I'm willing to bet that a lot of people who don't bother with getting flu shots are going to get their annual COVID shots.

[white rocket]

Nice summary. Thanks Traum.

I have never taken a flu shot but know plenty of people who have. When I was younger I used to think that it could potentially lesson the effectiveness of my immune system compared to just making healthy choices. No confirmation on that since it's pre-internet at the time. My mom would get it and ask me why I wouldn't and I remember using that story. I'd think why are people taking a shot to prevent maybe getting sick for a couple days, what a bunch of pussies. But I don't get sick very often, maybe every 3-5 years, and if I do it's a whiney man-cold for a couple days with a week of snotty residual. Not a big deal. The annual flu shot is just not something that is even close to being on my radar. That's all. No fear around it. Maybe for others who are more susceptible to getting sick would have a different view.

So are you saying that if I have no fear of the flu shot doing any damage then I should feel the exact same way about the COVID vaccines?

Originally Posted by StylinRed

I think it's clear ppl from both sides don't really know wtf is going on and are just acting out to allay their own nerves

This is my biggest take-away. Everyone is in their own echo chamber looking for conformation bias to support what they want to believe anyway.

[westopher]

I think the last sentence of your previous post sums it up though white rocket. You, or I really don’t know because we aren’t doctors or creators of vaccines.
We don’t know how planes work but we go on them.
People don’t know how to cook for shit but they trust me to make their food.
People don’t know how to build a house but they trust Honda to do it.
There’s a reason as a society that humans lives have gotten longer and things progress the way they have. We teach and train people to be the best they can at certain tasks, and we trust them to do their part while we do our part and everyone reaps the benefits. Are people wrong? Of course they are even at the things they do well, however there’s an element of trust that should be in society as a whole, ESPECIALLY when the smartest doctors and scientists in the world are working together for the greater good and nearly universally agree that this is the best and most effective course of action.
We’d never have gotten this far without it. We’d all be dying of dysentery on Oregon trail or smashing rocks together in a cave.
I think the anti vax movement carries an element of disrespect for health care professionals, and knowing many people in that field, I really don’t want to fucking stand for it. If I come off abrasive about it sometimes, I really do mean it to be. When I hear about assaults of health care workers and people screaming at nurses outside of hospitals it makes me so disgusted and angry that I’d like to see those people suffer, because it’s literally attacking people who have dedicated their lives to helping and healing people. It’s fucking appalling, and I’m not saying everyone who doesn’t want a vaccine is part of that group, but it’s a representation of contempt for health care workers.
I don’t need affirmation of my opinions on that from other people who choose to get vaccinated. That feeling runs deep, because as I said, as long as your opinions or “rights” affect others negatively, I don’t fucking jive with that.

[Traum]

Good for you that you've never really needed a flu shot, White Rocket.

My original intention behind the question was -- I suppose most people don't really have any strong hatred towards the flu shot. Even if they may not bother to get one in the fall / winter for themselves, I don't really think they'd hate the flu vaccine with as much hatred as some might towards the COVID vaccine.

The "leap of faith" would then be -- if you are not antagonistic towards the flu vaccine, then bearing in mind that around the world there must have been at least 3 - 4B doses of the mRNA vaccines already administered by now (since 7.8B doses in total among all the different vaccines have been given so far), is there really a need to be super concerned about the safety of something that has been used as frequently as the mRNA COVID vaccines? With as big a "user base" as we already have now, I think it is pretty safe to say that we have already seen most (all?) of the different possible side effects that we can see. And if there are still new side effects that we haven't seen yet, the chances of getting it is literally 1 in 3 to 4 billion!

Originally Posted by white rocket

So are you saying that if I have no fear of the flu shot doing any damage then I should feel the exact same way about the COVID vaccines?

I like Westopher's way of putting it -- we don't know how planes work, but we trust the engineers enough to take them. In the vaccine's case, I trust our medical scientists enough, and I trust the widespread public usage + the actual results that I can see enough to believe that the COVID vaccines we have access to are both safe and effective.

And if you have read some of my previous posts in this thread, you will see that I absolutely do not believe in the China-made Sinovac and Sinopharm vaccines. Studies by HKU have found Sinovac receipients to have some very, very low counts of antiviral bodies -- the proper name has just slipped my mind now -- in their bloodstream. And countries like Chile who had a very high vaccination rate using Chinese vaccines in the earlier stages were still seeing high transmission rates.

I'd like to think that I am approaching this in a sensible and logical manner.

[68style]

This whole idea that something is automatically bad because a big company made it needs to die.

CAN it be? Yes of course... but really needs to be given a rest as a go-to for every frickin situation. Sometimes companies are really big because... drumroll... they're really good at what they do! What a novel concept, I know. It's not all false advertising or actors doing testimonies or cover-ups of failed trials.

[SkinnyPupp]

Twitter

How fast is omicron spreading?

In Gauteng, where South Africa’s outbreak is currently centered, the reproduction rate -- how fast the virus spreads -- is over 3. That’s the highest it’s been and means that every infected person on average infects three more.

Cases in South Africa are rising at a near-record pace, and the rate of increase has outstripped South Africa’s three earlier waves.

Omicron is 4.2 times more transmissible than delta, according to a study in Japan.

The U.K. says the new strain is growing much faster than delta, and it expects omicron to become the dominant variant by the middle of December, accounting for more than half of new cases. On Friday, the U.K. reported almost 58,200 Covid cases overall.

How severe are infections?

With the outbreak just a few weeks old it’s too early to tell definitively, but doctors have reported patients with fatigue and headaches and little more. That’s a big contrast to delta’s racing pulse rates and respiratory problems.

South Africa’s three biggest private hospital operators say cases are much milder than in earlier waves. There are few people on oxygen or ventilators and only a slight uptick in deaths.

Currently there are about 5,000 people with Covid in South African hospitals, a quarter of the peaks seen in the previous two waves.

Do vaccines work?

The Africa Health Resource Institute was the first to isolate the virus and test it against Pfizer Inc.’s shot. Omicron is able to largely, but not completely, evade the antibodies generated in response to the inoculation, the research showed. Pfizer’s own study backed that up.

The U.K. said Friday that two shots from AstraZeneca Plc or the Pfizer-BioNTech SE partnership provided much less protection against symptomatic infection with omicron, compared with the delta strain. But a booster lifted that to 70% to 75% in the early days after the shot, according to preliminary data from a small study.

Data from South African hospitals in the municipal area of Tshwane presented on Dec. 3 showed that 68% of coronavirus hospital admissions were in people under 40. That compares with individuals over 50 accounting for 66.1% of hospitalizations during the first weeks of the third wave. South Africans over 60 are about twice as likely to have been vaccinated than those under 34.

So does Omicron suck or does it kick ass?

Richard Friedland, the chief executive officer of South Africa’s biggest private hospital group, Netcare Ltd. is optimistic.

“I actually think there is a silver lining here and this may signal the end of Covid-19, with it attenuating itself to such an extent that it’s highly contagious, but doesn’t cause severe disease,” he said. “It’s early days, but I’m less panicked. It feels different to me on the ground.”

The World Health Organization is remaining cautious for now given so many unknowns, and the concern that any variant is a risk.

“If they’re allowed to spread unchecked, even though they’re not individually more virulent or more lethal, they generate more cases, put pressure on the health system and more people die,” said Mike Ryan, executive director of the WHO emergencies program. “We should hope for the best outcome, but in this particular case, hope is not a strategy. We need to be very careful on making any final determinations on severity.”

[white rocket]

I'll close this discussion out by saying I mostly agree with what everyone is saying and am certainly not trying to red pill anyone. The information available about planes and food are hardly as controversial as this particular vaccine roll-out. While I can appreciate the dot connections made by the red pill narrative I can safely say that lizard people don't run the world, there is no grand conspiracy to control the human race in an overlord manner, vaccines are not poison, doctors and healthcare workers are trying to help, most of the "anti-vax" rhetoric is perpetrated by attention seeking disruptors, protestors and those looking for attention by being abusive or disruptive are fucking assholes and need to be held accountable for their horrible actions. I believe when those in this thread think of an "anti-vaxxer" they think of those people.

The "pro-choice" people I am talking about are healthcare workers who chose to be let go rather than take the shot and degree-holders and logical thinkers who have zero reason to go against the grain or cause harm in their life are seeing signs that something dubious is afoot (I'm being general because I'm not here to debate info). That, in and of itself, is intriguing to me because it's not the wise path or a path of personal gain. Why put your credibility and reputation at stake by speaking out about what everyone else would call non-sense and hurt your future chances of making money and being able to provide for your family? Weird. I'm talking personal friends, not famous/infamous podcasters. Because I have people like this in my life it creates space for possible new info.

The biggest takeaway is that I hang with people who are not vaxxed on a weekly, and even daily basis, within my own social circle like it's 2018 with zero fear. Kids playing, adults socializing, no "safety" measures in place in these settings at homes. Nothing has changed for us as a 20+ years friend group other than a single personal choice to either get vaxxed or not. We chose to, others didn't. Whatever. Are we all dodging bullets here? I mean, what are the odds that we are all still alive with our carelessness? Are we all Tyrese Gibson in Fast 9 constantly in harms way but never a scratch? How can I act this way when there are others that put on a mask when they are alone in a car? I can feel JDMDreams audibly gasp at the mere thought of vaxxed and unvaxxed in the same space and might even report me to the authorities because of our selfishness. Yet, her we all are. Alive and well. Maybe we've collectively killed hundreds. Who knows.

In the end, it's all perspective. If I was JDMDreams or 320icar dealing with retarded assholes all day I'd be bitter as fcuk too and wouldn't have time to entertain alternative topics but more just try to get home safe to my family each day. I obviously believe in it enough to vaccinated so that says something but I still leave space for possible new info.

[SkinnyPupp]

Thought I'd share this since the topic came up, but they are talking about doing injections in the thigh now instead of the shoulder, to lower risk of myocarditis (a 66 year old woman died from it in HK in July - possibly from the vaccine but she did have parvovirus in her heart tissue)

Twitter

They also say waiting longer between doses may help

[StylinRed]

They must need new syringes if they wanted to be able to aspirate (didn't pfizer moderna require new syringes to maximise doses? Guess it doesn't offer a aspiration function) so instead they're recommending injecting to the thigh

[JDMDreams]

Word on the news is that Omicron is spreading extremely fast and cases have been doubling every 3 days. Faster than any other infectious diseases that we've seen in recent years. And Boris Johnson of all people is already pushing everyone to get the third shot before the end of the year. I guess even the UK finally realizes shits hitting the fan

[whitev70r]

^ On the other hand, omicron supposedly results in mild symptoms and may be the variant that ends the pandemic. Hopefully. Historically, plagues and pandemics last 2.5 to 3 years with the last variant resulting in mild symptoms and then we will be able to say that Covid is just like the flu.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by JDMDreams

Word on the news is that Omicron is spreading extremely fast and cases have been doubling every 3 days. Faster than any other infectious diseases that we've seen in recent years. And Boris Johnson of all people is already pushing everyone to get the third shot before the end of the year. I guess even the UK finally realizes shits hitting the fan

Bearing in mind that I have zero medical knowledge background, with the way Omicron is panning out, I actually think it is the best variant that has come up so far. Yes, the data is pointing to a very, very infectious disease, even more so than delta. At the same time, Omicron's symptoms seem to be more mild than delta, esp against those who have been vaccinated.

In my extremely limited medical knowledge mind, isn't that a good thing? Who cares if you can easily get infected by Omicron as long as the symptoms are really mild? You don't die; you don't get super sick. You recover from it and you move on (even though you might get infected by Omicron again since there seems to be some suggestion that re-infection is much easier with Omicron). In terms of severity, it would really become flu-like -- as long as you are vaccinated.

And if Omicron can really displace delta, then that means the more deadly delta variant will gradually fade from existence, and that would be a good thing.

Mind you -- none of this means we should no longer give a fxxk and just go attend a COVID party to get sick with Omicron. But I think the outlook with Omicron certainly seems better than delta.

[whitev70r]

Yah ... what I read is that a virus doesn't survive evolutionary progress if it kills so many of its hosts namely us humans. If the end game of a virus is to infect as many as possible and for itself to survive, then omicron might be the saviour for human beings.

I don't understand all this ... as if viruses has some sort of collective intelligence. But it kinda makes sense ??!! I dunno.

[Presto]

It's like RPG skill points distribution. Put more points into transmission, but less points available for attack.

[Liquid_o2]

Lots of NHL players testing positive yesterday and today including two Canucks. Reading online it seems like Omicron is sweeping across North America this week.

[pastarocket]

Watching Dr. Henry's news conference now. This info. from her caught my attention:

She said that over 500 pharmacies are going to assist with the booster shot rollout in January.

As of December 12th, we have 44 cases of the Omicron variant in B.C.