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Quote:

Originally Posted by JSALES (Post 8978582)

How a couple of passengers were dressed flying out of YVR today

https://i.ibb.co/RYGN0YP/407-E2964-C...8827338-E8.jpg

I'm not going to make fun of anybody from now, no matter how overly protective gears they have.

except, the water jug over the head is still funny as hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSALES (Post 8978593)

I was browsing their firearm selection online a couple days ago because I was thinking about these worst case scenarios in my head lol

Only their storefront is closed, so you can still order online and have it shipped...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp (Post 8978574)

Sorry, this is a misconception. Every wet market you go to will have funky critters to sell. Some for food, some for TCM. Pangolins are not only eaten, but their scales are used in TCM.

And for those who want this stuff banned, forget about it. If moral obligation was more important than nationalism in China, it would have been banned a long time ago. Rhino poaching would have been banned. Bear torture would have been banned. They DID ban ivory trade a few years ago - only because it's not used in TCM. So they do know this stuff is wrong, they are just unwilling to give up on TCM. If there are "critters", it won't be cheap and that alone probably steer a lot of people away.

The only thing that would get this shit to stop would be the banning of TCM. And you can forget about that from ever happening. Chinese govt promotes it like crazy, at the very least for nationalistic propaganda purposes. They want to promote it as the de-facto medicine practice in the nations they are developing throughout Africa and the rest of the world. Hell, they even had WHO remove their advisory not to rely on herbal medication for Coronavirus. Even now, with wildlife trade banned in China, they allow some animals to continue to be traded, for TCM purposes. This loophole is of course being abused to continue smuggling animals. FailFish

Some input from someone who grew up in Shanghai, China:

Never really saw anything too outlandish in the local wet markets. The farthest I have seen are dogs in a rural part, but given Shanghai, it's far from popular. I am sure if you look for it, you can find some weird stuff, but my family never seeked out for that kind of stuff so as long as you stay in the "normal" parts of the market, I don't think you will come across something too weird.

I am no expert in TCM, but for most of the more common recipes I had as a kid, I don't recall anything that's too outlandish. The weirdest one is probably cicada shells... Now I don't doubt there is some weird stuff that are used for TCM, but at the same time, it also boils down to the price and access. Your average doctor in public hospitals(which most people go to) will likely prescribe you what you can easily afford(herbs and farm animal parts) versus the weird ones that are rarer, more expensive and possibly illegal.

TCM is a touchy topic. Personally I think it's been around for a long time so there is at least some truth to them. Like I said, very outlandish recipes exist for sure, but how widely they are used is up for debate.

And banning doesn't solve this problem. Illegal markets will always exist in any jurisdictions. Hard drugs are illegal and immoral, but people still make and sell them, but again, most people steer clear of them. A small number of people have that demand, it will have to be filled somehow.

Just did a bit of research on Pangolin, and came across a very interesting point mentioned on Wikipedia: Pangolin doesn't have a natural habitat in Wuhan or Hubei province for that matter. I know not to trust Wikipedia on everything but you can pretty much check any source and confirm Pangolin's natural habitats. So why did it break out in Wuhan and nowhere else? Seems odd, unless poachers know something we don't(highly unlikely).

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX (Post 8978597)

Pangolins are imported by the ton into China for food and TCM, and continue to do so to this day.

It broke out in Wuhan because, despite your personal anecdotes, wet markets store tons of animals in dangerously close proximity, in tiny dirty cages covered in their own filth, the shit pouring down from the animals on the top of the pile onto the ones below them.

None of this is new or mysterious or made up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp (Post 8978598)

You didn't really answer my question. OK, it's imported, so why didn't the virus break out at wherever it's imported from?

And have you been to a wet market or you just reading something online that tries to discover the most filthy ones because that attracts clicks? I will say it's not the most sanitary place, but if it's that disgusting, it's not good for the business, either. I think probably the filthiest are the avians but those are farm animals.

The main point I have been trying to make is that Pangolin isn't like a regular dish your average Chinese person will have, just due to accessibility and high prices. Banning doesn't solve much in this case: those rich people will always find ways to have them if they so wish, just means they gotta spend a little extra. Your average person won't be seeking them in the first place. What is being achieved here?

You can also see that Pangolin consumption isn't just limited in China, so either the virus didn't originate from it, or every other country has somehow just been extremely lucky.

"Pangolins have been consumed as a source of protein in virtually every range country throughout human history. In Asia, this continues, but in many places local consumption has been foregone in favour of selling the animals into illicit, international trade because of the high prices pangolins can fetch. The majority of this trade is destined to China and Vietnam, as well as other countries in Southeast Asia, where pangolins are consumed as a delicacy. The high price and perceived rarity means consumers eat pangolins as a luxury product to demonstrate their wealth and reinforce social status, for example, businesspeople trying to impress clients on signing contracts. In Africa, pangolins are eaten as wild meat, especially in West and Central Africa, where local rather than international trade is predominant. Estimates suggest that at least 400,000 pangolins are hunting and consumed locally in Central Africa each year (2)."

https://www.pangolinsg.org/pangolins/threats/

Not that I encourage Pangolin consumption, but some of your claims need sources.

will domestic flights be next to be grounded?

company wants to send me to some conference up in Prince Rupert

Wait who's the genius that come up with the 50 people is an ok number to have in a restaurant? Didn't this all started from 1 person? Like if a place have 51 people it will some how cause a major impact? Lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acura604 (Post 8978605)

will domestic flights be next to be grounded?

company wants to send me to some conference up in Prince Rupert

Air Canada has announced paring down of their domestic and international flights.

Quick history of TCM

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4259

Quote:

Today we're going to take a look at how Chinese alternative medicine spread into the Western world. Promoters of alternative medicine claim that this ancient wisdom was (and is) in common use throughout China, and the Western world is becoming aware of its value. Skeptics of this position point out that alternative medicine was only used in Chinese rural areas where conventional treatments were not available, and it became popular because it was inexpensive, not because it was effective. The actual history brings some interesting perspective onto both of these points of view.

So let's go back and visit revolutionary China, around the middle of the 20th century. Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward was in full swing, precedent to the Cultural Revolution. At the beginning of this period, most Chinese were one of the world's isolated populations, to whose doorsteps modern innovations had not yet arrived, much like many Africans, Indians, and Indonesians. They lived largely unaware of what was happening in science and technology, and their worldviews were dominated by local traditions. Medicine was rarely seen by any of these populations; when someone was ill, traditional treatments based on centuries of unscientific beliefs were what was known and applied.

Meanwhile, throughout most industrialized population centers in the world, including China's big cities, hospitals practiced the leading edge of medicine. Chinese oncologists prescribed chemotherapy for cancer just like in other parts of the world. Patients in great pain would be given opiates. As early as 1949, the Chinese Academy of Sciences was one of the world's leading research institutions in life sciences and medicine. One difference that you would have seen between Chinese hospitals and those in other nations was the use of acupuncture, which was and still is in relatively wide usage; however, with an important proviso. In China, acupuncture is only used for pain relief, never as a treatment, and always in conjunction with conventional painkiller medications whenever available. It's essentially an ornament alongside the same basic treatments used in other modern hospitals.

This application of the best medical science available was all well and good for those Chinese living in the cities, but it wasn't doing much for those a thousand kilometers out in the country who were scarcely even aware that the cities existed. In 1958, Mao Zedong launched a Communist party magazine in China called Red Flag. Its title on the front page was written in Mao's own calligraphy. Red Flag was the government's primary mouthpiece throughout China for Mao's reform programs, explaining the plans and laying out the philosophy. One of the national problems that Red Flag addressed was healthcare. By 1964, the urban population was still less than 2% that of the national population, with the overwhelming majority living in remote rural areas. Yet that 2% living in the cities received almost all of China's healthcare budget, and all of the benefit of innovations from modern medicine.

Mao's government had tried since 1949 to recruit and encourage doctors to move from the cities to the country, but this had been largely a failure. What healthcare there was had been mainly provided by traveling teams of doctors who would spend a few weeks in the outlying provinces, but would then return to their hospitals in the cities where they could receive a decent income. The problem grew more pronounced with the increasing spread of schistosomiasis, a parasitic disease that caused infection and organ damage, and is most notably characterized by swelling in the abdomen. Schistosomiasis came to be something of an iconic symbol for the lack of healthcare in China.

Mao planned a fix. In 1968, Red Flag published what was to be China's solution. Mao's experience had taught him that efforts to push healthcare out to the countryside were doomed, and so he did the opposite. Farmers were recruited from all over China, given free training, and sent back to their own villages to serve as medical professionals.

Within just a few years, some 150,000 doctors and 350,000 paramedics — half a million workers to serve over half a billion patients — were at work throughout the country. They became known as the barefoot doctors. Candidates were required to be high school graduates. Most received three to six months of training at the nearest hospital, and when they worked as doctors in their villages they accumulated work points just as they did for their normal farming work. (Work points were a system used in communist China to tabulate each family's productivity, for which they could receive grain beyond the basic allotment, or other goods and services.) Barefoot doctors worked no more than half-time as medics; they were still required to continue their agricultural work to prevent productivity from suffering. Many barefoot doctors went on to later attend medical school and became licensed doctors. In fact, Professor Chen Zhu, China's Minister of Health and a Vice President of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, actually began his career as a barefoot doctor in the countryside in Jiangxi Province before deciding to go to medical school.

By 1970, China boasted a great army of half a million paramedics. They were trained and they were stationed throughout the country where they were most needed. But there was still a problem, a very large problem. There were almost no resources to equip the barefoot doctors with medical instruments, supplies, or drugs. There was a medical treatment available for schistosomiasis, but there was no money for the barefoot doctors to provide it. So they employed the one resource China had always had plenty of: Manpower. Schistosomiasis is caused by worms, and these worms are spread by infected snails through a local water supply. Throughout China, barefoot doctors directed workers to clear ponds and streams, and eradicate the snail population. It was quite successful; within fifteen years, this simple technique reduced the incidence of schistosomiasis from ten million per year to just over two million, and in some areas, it was nearly completely eliminated.

Another significant part of their training was in first aid, to address injuries and other medical emergencies. Pre- and post-natal care was also taught, as well as basic hygiene like washing hands before eating. The barefoot doctors were taught to recognize the symptoms of conditions requiring medical treatment, and were trained to refer such patients to the nearest hospital. But what about everything in between; illness not serious enough to warrant hospitalization, wellness care, and simple treatable conditions? Barefoot doctors were enabled to prescribe medications, but the problem was that medication was hard to come by and often too expensive for peasants. Mao knew he didn't have the funds to stock 150,000 new pharmacies throughout China. So, he provided an alternative.

The Revolutionary Health Committee of Hunan Province published a textbook, A Barefoot Doctor's Manual, intended to equip the unequipped barefoot doctor with everything he needed. The manual is amazingly comprehensive, giving instructions for how nearly any expected illness can and should be treated. It covers basic anatomy, birth control, hygiene, and diagnosis. Interestingly, it also anticipates the likely unavailabilty of needed medical therapies. So as a supplement, the bulk of its content is about medicinal herbs: What they look like, how to collect and prepare them, and what conditions they are believed to treat.

When A Barefoot Doctor's Manual reached Western cultures, Chinese alternative medicine went from being a vague curiosity to being an all-out pop-culture fad.

But the book provided a somewhat flawed introduction. It did not provide an insight into what was happening in Chinese hospitals, nor even what most fully licensed medical doctors would have practiced. A Barefoot Doctor's Manual instead showed what the worst equipped Chinese medics would have to resort to under the worst circumstances. Westerners got a slanted perception of Chinese medicine from the book.

While it's true that A Barefoot Doctor's Manual advocates alternative therapies, it also recommends conventional medical treatment whenever available. For example, the manual describes the treatment for Japanese encephalitis. It recommends the use of acupuncture, mud packs, a compress using extracts of toad, and herbal teas. But it also gives the list of conventional drugs that should be given intravenously. Throughout the manual, almost every disease listed includes the conventional medical treatment that should be given whenever available, and the traditional treatment to be given otherwise.

However, I found out something quite interesting when I tried to verify this. There are a number of English translations of A Barefoot Doctor's Manual available. I was intrigued when I saw that the page counts varied widely. Some are as short as 372 pages, some as long as 960. I could only find one edition available in electronic form to allow searching and comparison, and it's the one that's been most widely published in the US. It's from The Running Press, and its full title is A Barefoot Doctor's Manual: A Concise Edition of the Classic Work of Eastern Herbal Medicine. Note that word "concise". Beginning in 1977, The Running Press used to publish a longer version of the book, which is now out of print. Its title was A Barefoot Doctor's Manual: The American Translation of the Official Chinese Paramedical Manual. By scanning through brief snippets of the original full-length text available on Google Books, I found that the complete conventional medical treatment for Japanese encephalitis was given. But searching through the "concise" edition, which I bought, all such mentions of conventional medicine have been deleted. Some 600 pages of sound medical information were cut from the book for Western audiences. What remains is essentially a list of Chinese traditional treatments, with nothing to inform the reader that the barefoot doctors ever relied on anything else. The edition was not simply made concise; it was carefully edited to give a skewed (and untrue) impression of what Chinese medicine is. The publishers changed it from a responsible paramedical manual into a promotion for alternative medicine under the guise of "ancient Chinese wisdom".

And so, when we look at the history as a whole, we find that alternative medicine did not represent what knowledgeable Chinese doctors would have prescribed, at least not since the dawn of science-based medicine; and so the argument that alternative medicine is valid because the Chinese use it, is false. And we also find that the skeptical claim that Mao promoted alternative medicine through the barefoot doctor plan because it was cheap is not quite true either. The plan was an honest attempt to provide the best available medical care, and it only fell back upon alternative therapies when nothing else was at hand...and unfortunately, this was the case...all too often.

By Brian Dunning

Please contact us with any corrections or feedback.

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Cite this article:
Dunning, B. "Mao's Barefoot Doctors: The Secret History of Chinese Medicine." Skeptoid Podcast. Skeptoid Media, 24 May 2011. Web. 18 Mar 2020. <https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4259>

References & Further Reading
Daqing Z., Unschuld, P. "China's Barefoot Doctor: Past, Present, and Future." The Lancet. 29 Nov. 2008, Volume 372, Issue 9653: 1865-1867.

Editors. A Barefoot Doctor's Manual: The American Translation of the Official Chinese Paramedical Manual. Philadelphia: The Running Press, 1977.

Editors. A Barefoot Doctor's Manual: A Concise Edition of the Classic Work of Eastern Herbal Medicine. Philadelphia: The Running Press, 2003.

MacFarquhar, R., Fairbank, J. The Cambridge History of China, Volume 15, Part 2. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1991. 651-652.

Valentine, V. "Health for the Masses: China's Barefoot Doctors." NPR. National Public Radio, 4 Nov. 2005. Web. 17 May. 2011. <http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4990242>

Yihong P. Tempered in the Revolutionary Furnace: China's Youth in the Rustication Movement. Lanham: Lexington Books, 2003. 47-48.

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderblade (Post 8978607)

The point of this designated number is to limit the exposure to x amount of people, because it's here,it's going to happen, and is happening.

It's a numbers game to "flatten the curve" as they say.

How is everyone else's workplace dealing with closing and paying their employees?

Specifically salary employees.

We're trying to keep our shop open as long as possible cause my employee's including myself want/need to work.

https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2...na-wet-markets

Interesting article.

"But this is a wildlife regulation problem, not a wet market problem. Not that long ago, chickens in wet markets were sold live, killed on the spot. Avian flu and the subsequent wholesale elimination of live chickens from wet markets is proof that the country has the regulatory power and ability to execute urgent health policy when it needs to. Exotic meat does not need to be regulated out of existence, as a bill passed in China’s legislature on Feb. 24 promised, but needs a more nuanced and comprehensive approach. A blanket ban will only push it underground. Education, regulation, a supervised farm network and explicitly legal channels for consumers are all needed to counter the existing gray market."

Like I said, just banning it won't do anything. Real life isn't a forum where you just banhammer someone's IP and problem solved. The approach mentioned in the article is much more likely to be more effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX (Post 8978603)

Pangolins are imported and collected (among other animals) in large numbers throughout markets in China. The reason outbreaks don't occur when they're in their natural habitat should be obvious...

And yes, audacious eating is big with rich people who want to show off. That means the market for this food will exist. People who do this don't care about anything other than showing how awful they can be. Look at me, I am eating a pangolin/koala/wolf cub/giraffe penis/etc. I bet there are some who are deranged enough to eat pandas.

But that's only part of it, the rest is TCM. Pangolin scales are believed to have the typical whacky TCM claims - improving blood flow, treating rheumatism, removing "meridian obstruction", using their bile to treat liver ailments.

Because TCM isn't going away, wild trade won't go away. This includes pangolins as well as tigers, bears, etc.

And because of that, the market for evil dieting will still be there.

What makes it all worse is that the Chinese govt is fighting hard to change reality, claiming the virus didn't come from these markets. They will do everything in their power to protect TCM. Including provoking America and spreading racism on both sides of the border.

Also, typically the only regulations that are strictly enforced are those that threaten the party itself. Other rules are generally lax in China, you know that.

Edit: Not sure what sources you need... Sources of pangolins used in TCM? Just google it... Here's The Lancet, using Chinese sources talking about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp (Post 8978613)

The number and density can make sense, I am not sure if Wuhan is a big place for that but it's possible. Either way, while I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese government is lying, I think we will never know the absolute truth. I do accept that the theory that it originated in China at the wet market, as it stands now, to be the most likely one.

As for TCM... Yeah, the Chinese government won't be doing away with it completely, but I would hope that at least down the line, some of these protected wild animal recipes can be done away. If we can eliminate the demand, that will help solve the problems.

And agreed on the last claim.

Edit: Damn, did some research and seems like poaching for the scales is a much larger issue, since as mentioned, it's legal to be used as a part of TCM and thus can be easily and legally acquired. And yes the claims for its effects are very dubious.

Kinda surprised this hasnt been posted here yet. Unless i didnt see it then my apologies

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-...tml#individual

Emergency Funds for COVID-19:

1. GST credit - $400 single adults - $600 for couples

2. Child Tax benefit Top up - $300 per child added on top of
what you receive already.

3. Student loan payments deferred
-6 month timeframe
-no payments
-no interest accrual

4. Indigenous community based support fund
-$305 million

5. $200 million provided for community resources
-Shelters/homeless needs
-Sexual assault/transition homes

6. 10% wage subsidy for small-medium sized businesses for employees.
-$25,000 per employer

7. Ensured Mortgage Protection Program
-50 billion provided
-payment deferrals
-special payment arrangements

8. Bank Supports
-auto loans - deferral of payments possible
-contact bank directly
-speak to your institutions

9. Personal Income Tax
-payment before September. 1st/2020 - extended deadline for income tax payments owed

-Filing deadline for Income Tax - June.1st/2020

10. Emergency Care Benefit
-Quarantined or caring for sick family member
-Providing $900 bi weekly
-Payment via direct deposit
-Will not require medical documentation
-Starting early April

11. Emergency support fund - $5 Billion
-more info to come

*Supply chains from groceries will maintain fair prices for Canadians

PLEASE SEE WEBSITE ON HOW TO APPLY FOR PROGRAMS:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-...tml#individual

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiceIntegraRS (Post 8978621)

I watched him state it in English and French this morning. I'm very happy that we're all supporting each other during this pandemic.

:rukidding:

The mild Trudeau haters must be pretty happy with him now

Can you imagine if the Conservatives won... :heckno:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiceIntegraRS (Post 8978621)

Kinda surprised this hasnt been posted here yet. Unless i didnt see it then my apologies

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-...tml#individual

Because people would rather read chain mail messages and exaggerated media sources?

Does anyone know how to apply?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp (Post 8978625)

The mild Trudeau haters must be pretty happy with him now

Can you imagine if the Conservatives won... :heckno:

I don't know that any party would be much concerned with spending money at this point.

Canadian crude has dropped to an all-time low at $7.40/barrel.
Canada's dollar is likely to continue to plummet.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/oil-r...7JOTlrUNkp3Je5

Quote:

(Bloomberg) -- In the oil price war between Saudi Arabia and Russia, the first big victim is likely to be Canada.

Hit by unfettered supply from Russia and Saudi Arabia and reduced demand as a result of the coronavirus, the benchmark blend of crude produced from Canada’s oil sands plunged to a record low of $7.47 a barrel on Wednesday. The fallout: Virtually every barrel of oil now produced there will come at a loss at a time when the energy industry generates 10% of Canada’s gross domestic product and a fifth of its exports.

Sen. John Cornyn Says China ‘Is to Blame’ for Coronavirus Because They ‘Eat Bats and Snakes and Dogs’

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/se...akes-and-dogs/

A friend of mine who's Chinese works IT for Pirelli in Italy. He basically got out before the pandemic blew up but he said Italy is a no go for anyone Asian for a long time. Even before the pandemic he would tell me how co-workers would say he was stealing info to make replica tires in China and in general would never be welcomed when he went out. He might not return to Italy or Europe and instead look for work locally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ws6ta (Post 8978623)

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1240371160078000128

:rukidding:

Lol omfg as bad as it sound I hope all these dumb fuck catch it and we'll see what suck at the of the day. I mean is probably best to wipe them out at once anyway so we get less of these type people on this planet. Ignorant fucker gonna get everyone kill. That dumb bitch....I'm 21 just gonna party wooo...2 weeks later we'll see her death feed on facebook saying 21 gone too soon. :rukidding:

cad was 0.71 usd yesterday 0.68 now

Italy is going to surpass China in deaths by tomorrow, and what's more shocking is that Italy isn't counting deaths from nursing homes, because they won't even test them for corona, but reportedly there are many nursing home deaths due to a flu

Just reported on bbc