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I think sports cars are money makers, just not Japanese ones. Look how many Mustangs/Challengers/Chargers/Camaros/Corvettes the Americans move each year. They sold like 100k Mustangs last year. The FRS sold like 10k in it's best year since release.
American sports cars print money. Not sure when/why the shift happened, but here we are.
There are profitable sports cars but those are from sports car manufacturers like Porsche and Ferrari. They're profitable because they're expensive for what they are and people will buy them because of the brand recognition. That's their business model. Win races, sell really expensive cars and sell a bunch of hats and T-shirts with their logo on them. Ferrari makes more money off merchandise than their cars.
Brand recognition is why the Mustang was saved from the culling of Fords passenger cars and they saved it to turn it into an SUV. Challengers, Chargers and Camaros are not sports cars, they just took existing platforms and put big motors in them. Change they styling a bit and you have a pony/muscle car. The Camaro's platform is the same one in pretty much every Cadillac sedan. Those MIGHT be profitable because the shared platform reduces R&D costs but FCA doesn't show profitability for individual cars. Rumour is, GM is scrapping the Camaro again. Probably don't want a second money losing car along with the Corvette.
The Corvette is interesting. It can be profitable but GM doesn't charge enough for it to be. More expensive versions would bring more profit but the volume isn't there. GM expects to lose money on every Corvette under $80k.
Brand recognition is why the Mustang was saved from the culling of Fords passenger cars and they saved it to turn it into an SUV. Challengers, Chargers and Camaros are not sports cars, they just took existing platforms and put big motors in them. Change they styling a bit and you have a pony/muscle car. The Camaro's platform is the same one in pretty much every Cadillac sedan. Those MIGHT be profitable because the shared platform reduces R&D costs but FCA doesn't show profitability for individual cars. Rumour is, GM is scrapping the Camaro again. Probably don't want a second money losing car along with the Corvette.
The Corvette is interesting. It can be profitable but GM doesn't charge enough for it to be. More expensive versions would bring more profit but the volume isn't there. GM expects to lose money on every Corvette under $80k.
Say what you want with the Mustangs and Chargers/Challengers, but Camaros are very much blurring the lines between sports cars and pony cars. The SS can very well keep up with the M4 and the ZL1 1LE is a track beast. Even the performance Mustangs are not too bad when it comes to handling.
Camaro shares the platform with ATS and CTS, which had their own high performance versions(ATS-V and CTS-V). Alpha chassis is a very solid platform.
The way Camaro works now is that it's a parts bin car. It uses Cadillac platforms(and therefore made in the same plant, Lancing River), uses the Corvette engine, and other parts are also shared with other GM cars. The ignition button and volume controls on the steering wheel are the same as a C7 Corvette. I am aware of the rumours, let's hope it's not true.
I think economy of scale is pretty much the answer to why Japanese manufacturers can't bring performance cars like Europeans and Americans. Europeans sell fewer cars at a premium to ensure profit, while Americans sell more cars that share a lot of parts with their other products. Pony car V8 engines are basically just upgraded truck engines, which sell in millions. Japanese can't play the premium card as well as the Europeans, while their focus is also not on V8 engines.
And the Bubble Economy probably left a very bitter taste in the mouths of Japanese manufacturers when it bursted and made them very cautious with selling sports cars now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traum
The engine is adequate, and I'd expect it to work quite nicely for street use, but a larger displacement will almost certainly make it less eager to rev and revs are fun.
Revs are fun... If there is adequate displacement to support it. I drove a Mustang GT recently and the Gen 3 Coyote is pretty solid. 5.0 with a 7.5k RPM redline with decently strong low-end as well.
Having piss-poor low-end torque is not fun if you plan to daily drive, especially considering most family cars are turbocharged/hybrid nowadays and they would be pulling ahead of you when you are still building up revs. Trust me, when I had my RX-8, I loved revving to 9k RPM, but you can't always do that and it just gets annoying in daily driving to always have to rev high.
Last edited by UnknownJinX; 11-19-2020 at 11:52 AM.
Yeah but the SS, M4 and 1LE are not the ones most people are going to buy. Especially female buyers who tend to buy it because it looks cool. Of the bunch, I think the Mustang is the only sports car. Started out as pony car but it's very much a sports car today.
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"Damn fine car Dodge... Ran over me wife with a Dodge!", Zeke
Yeah but the SS, M4 and 1LE are not the ones most people are going to buy. Especially female buyers who tend to buy it because it looks cool. Of the bunch, I think the Mustang is the only sports car. Started out as pony car but it's very much a sports car today.
If you somehow count Mustang as a sports car but not a Camaro, I think you need to review the definition of sports car. Actually, I know the word you wanted to say: GT. Mustang is more of a GT than the Camaro, that I will agree.
Like, what makes an Ecoboost Mustang more sports car than a V6 Camaro RS if we are talking about the non-performance versions of them?
If you somehow count Mustang as a sports car but not a Camaro, I think you need to review the definition of sports car. Actually, I know the word you wanted to say: GT. Mustang is more of a GT than the Camaro, that I will agree.
Like, what makes an Ecoboost Mustang more sports car than a V6 Camaro RS if we are talking about the non-performance versions of them?
The definition of sports car too loosey goosey. By definition, a Miata is not a sports car because it can't go fast nor can it get up to speed quickly.
What is clear is a Pony car = big motor in existing platform which the current Mustang is not. It's on a dedicated purpose built platform like the Corvette and Ford GT. If it's not a pony car then it goes in the loosey goosey category of sports car even if the 4banger isn't very fast/quick. The Camaro clearly fits in the Pony category and the 4banger... is just a car.
Can the Camaro go like and handle like a sports car? Yes, many cars do. Is it a sports car? No.
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"Damn fine car Dodge... Ran over me wife with a Dodge!", Zeke
Last edited by !LittleDragon; 11-19-2020 at 01:21 PM.
I've never heard anyone say a Camaro or Mustang is not a sports car. What about the GT350, 350R, 500 etc?
It's hella lot closer to a sports car than any other category.
I've never heard anyone say a Camaro or Mustang is not a sports car. What about the GT350, 350R, 500 etc?
It's hella lot closer to a sports car than any other category.
The definition of sports car too loosey goosey. By definition, a Miata is not a sports car because it can't go fast nor can it get up to speed quickly.
What is clear is a Pony car = big motor in existing platform which the current Mustang is not. It's on a dedicated purpose built platform like the Corvette and Ford GT. If it's not a pony car then it goes in the loosey goosey category of sports car even if the 4banger isn't very fast/quick. The Camaro clearly fits in the Pony category and the 4banger... is just a car.
Can the Camaro go like and handle like a sports car? Yes, many cars do. Is it a sports car? No.
So I guess any car from BMW M series isn't a sports car, then. Neither is MB AMG series, or the Audi RS series. Oh, Zupr4 also doesn't count as a sports car. 370Z doesn't count.
I have never heard anyone banning platform sharing from sports cars. In fact, platform sharing is the norm, not the exception nowadays.
Those would be sport sedans. You can call a Camaro a sports car if you want, I just think it fits better in the pony car category because by definition, that's what a pony car is. Like I said, sports car is loosey goosey. Some people think all 2 door cars are sports cars and Germans think a coupe can have 4 doors.
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"Damn fine car Dodge... Ran over me wife with a Dodge!", Zeke
Last edited by !LittleDragon; 11-19-2020 at 05:10 PM.
The Toyota styling influence on the BRZ this time round is huge. As others have mentioned already, lots of RCF and even some GR Yaris vibes on the exterior, and lots of Lexus IS influence inside, especially the passenger side dash. Those centre vents are literally the exact same as the ones in my 2018 IS. The seats are also a variant of the Toyota Boshoku seats that Toyota mildy retools for all of their cars these days.
__________________ [13-03, 11:25] MG1 when you hit the brakes, it shoots cum at pedestrian - bukkake
[12-03, 19:06] meme405 That e30 is so mexiflushed I thought we were in albuquerque
[12-03, 23:03] rb when i see a modded element. I have nothing but respect. either the parents kicked him out or the guy is killing hookers in the back
The Toyota styling influence on the BRZ this time round is huge. As others have mentioned already, lots of RCF and even some GR Yaris vibes on the exterior, and lots of Lexus IS influence inside, especially the passenger side dash. Those centre vents are literally the exact same as the ones in my 2018 IS. The seats are also a variant of the Toyota Boshoku seats that Toyota mildy retools for all of their cars these days.
Side vents, yes. Centre vents...not really, they are just same shape.
IMO, the easiest things Toyota can do to differentiate its version of the 86 from the BRZ is to do what typical auto enthusiasts would do:
- put some wider wheels and tires in there
- put in some stiffer springs and quality shocks with good valving that would improve handling and comfort
- more aggressive and responsive ECU tune
- put in a more aggressive-sounding muffler (yay VI magnet~!)
- put a high quality sporty seat (like Recaro) in there
None of these should be that expensive since individuals and aftermarket companies do it all the time on what would be a shoestring budget compared to the resources that Toyota has. And with the volume that Toyota would have from manufacturing, the cost increases shouldn't be that much.
What is clear is a Pony car = big motor in existing platform which the current Mustang is not.
TL;DR Mustang is on an early 2000s Lincoln LS platform that has been refreshed to hell and back. I've daily'd one and think it drives worse than the Challenger. Camaro slaps M2 Comp around a track, slaps Mustang even harder.
Perhaps I can clarify with what I've learned from a Ford engineer who works on powertrains.
The Mustang is actually on the early 2000s Lincoln LS chassis that's been updated over the years. The S550's old bones show in the way it drives - I used to daily one. The Mustang drive is nowhere as cohesive than Challenger and Camaro. The next-generation S650 was supposed to go on the CD6 RWD platform (Explorer/Aviator), but the cost targets and engineering on that platform got screwed so it will be another platform refresh...
If you look at C&D Lightning Lap, the Camaros' Alpha platform SLAPS the M2 Comp and Mustang GT.
Camaro SS 1LE is 5 seconds faster than M2 Comp
Camaro SS 1LE is 9 seconds faster than Mustang GT
Camaro V6 1LE is ~1 second faster than Mustang GT
Ford recently released Performance Pack 2 on 305mm Cup 2, chassis braces, torsen diff (that overheats btw) and that's finally a second faster than the '17 SS 1LE.
Yes, the Challenger is heavy but the handling characteristic is predictable and capable.
That’s all fine and dandy but I’ve sat in a Camaro and it doesn’t matter how it drives, that’s a shitty cockpit and it has terrible outward viewing angles / tiny greenhouse.
That’s all fine and dandy but I’ve sat in a Camaro and it doesn’t matter how it drives, that’s a shitty cockpit and it has terrible outward viewing angles / tiny greenhouse.
What’s even worse is the ugly stick that Chevy beat the front end with for the 2019 refresh. What were they thinking??
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