Furnace/Heat Pump

[Euro7r]

My house needs furnace replaced (it literally can die any day 43+ years).

If I just replace the furnace, what is the cost nowadays for a 2000sq ft home? $7-8K?

I heard about all the rebates with getting a heat pump system, how exactly does this work? I read that you need to get someone to do an evaluation in your home first, submit the paper work in order to get approval before doing the heat pump work? (This is to also get the rebate money?).

Does anyone have recommendation on whom I can contact for this type of work as well?

Thanks!

[Great68]

You're going to be looking at $15k on the low end to $25k on the upper end.

It all depends on size of unit, whether you need electrical upgrades, and difficulty of running refrig lines & wiring through the house.

Just for reference, my 3-ton central unit cost me $15K installed last year, replacing my old oil furnace. And that was "good buddy" pricing, basically cost + 10%, done by my buddy who's the commercial Project Manager for one of the larger refrig companies here on the island.
That also excluded any electrical work (Which I did myself, and already had 200A service in my house)

As for rebates, there are three major rebates available:
1. Clean BC Heat Pump Rebate - Up to $6k. This one is essentially through BC Hydro, and is simple to get. All you have to do is install you heat pump, submit your application, and submit receipts/proofs. (Just make sure the heat pump you install is an elligible model)

2. Canada Greener Homes Grant - Up to $5k for upgrades + $600 for the energy evaluations.
This is the federal grant, is a bit more convoluted in the process. This is the one where you must sign up, then do a pre-upgrade energy evaluation before install (Cost about $600), and a post-upgrade evaluation after install (Cost about $200).

3. Canada Oil to Heat Pump Affordability Grant - Up to $5k. This one is brand new for this year (I just missed it). Obviously only applies if you're upgrading from oil furnace.

There also may be top ups/rebates available through your municipality/district. I got an additional $350 from Saanich and $350 from the CRD.

One thing I will say though, don't count on getting the rebate money back quickly. It was about 4 months before I got the Clean BC rebate cheque, and 7 months before I got the Federal greener homes cheque.

[SSM_DC5]

What type of wire and breaker did you add? And is the wire and breaker good for pretty much any unit that be used in a residential setting? I'm thinking about prewiring before I drywall the areas around my electrical panel.

[Great68]

That really depends on size & make/model of your unit.

My 3-ton used a 30A/240V 10-2 supply to the outdoor unit, and 14-3 power/control from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit.

A 4 or 5 ton might use a 40A/240V 8-2 to the outdoor unit. And some models might need the neutral, so then you'd need a 3 conductor.

You won't know what your exact requirements are until you select your unit.

[whitev70r]

I was thinking a lot about this and for the 2-3 weeks that you need ac, it's a lot of $$$. I can easily buy 2-3 12,000 btu portable ac's to cover each floor at what, $700 each? I can see the convenience of it being central, don't have to worry about storing the ac's in the fall to spring but man, $15K ... how long will it take me to recoup that cash outlay? And the paperwork for rebates, the process, and my strata requirements (they want documentation that it is legit and won't ruin common property, etc.)

I'm having 2nd thoughts on heat pump/ac. I know it's only May but I suspect no one has had to turn on the ac on your heat pump yet. There was one week when temps went a bit high but by evening, still manageable with a fan. If I lived in Kamloops or Kelowna or Abbotsford, yah ... for sure cuz it gets so much hotter there but here in the Mainland ... hmmmm.

[unit]

its getting hotter every year so just think abt that investment 5-10 years from now.

also just off the top of my head, theres a lot of other advantages of central ac.
-noise
-reaches every room
-no bulky portable unit using up space in your room

[Great68]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

I was thinking a lot about this and for the 2-3 weeks that you need ac, it's a lot of $$$. I can easily buy 2-3 12,000 btu portable ac's to cover each floor at what, $700 each? I can see the convenience of it being central, don't have to worry about storing the ac's in the fall to spring but man, $15K ... how long will it take me to recoup that cash outlay? And the paperwork for rebates, the process, and my strata requirements (they want documentation that it is legit and won't ruin common property, etc.)

I'm having 2nd thoughts on heat pump/ac. I know it's only May but I suspect no one has had to turn on the ac on your heat pump yet. There was one week when temps went a bit high but by evening, still manageable with a fan. If I lived in Kamloops or Kelowna or Abbotsford, yah ... for sure cuz it gets so much hotter there but here in the Mainland ... hmmmm.

Uh, heat pumps also supply HEAT, which is where the majority of cost of use savings come into effect. The cooling function is a bonus.

I mean sure, you absolutely can get a boatload of portable AC's for cooling. But they're noisy, less efficient, and a pain in the ass to set up and have around.

And yeah, my heat pump has gone into cooling mode several times since it warmed up in april. It's in cooling right now.

[whitev70r]

Originally Posted by Great68

Uh, heat pumps also supply HEAT, which is where the majority of cost of use savings come into effect. The cooling function is a bonus.

Fair enough, I read that some suggest a hybrid where you keep your gas furnace, others suggest removing it altogether and go fully heat pump. Others have commented that if it goes below like -8C, then it is not very efficient. Just hearing some stories from people who borderline regretted it.

[Euro7r]

My uncle went with a furnace + AC setup. Ended up paying $15K excluding rebates. I'm debating if heat pump is really needed cuz my home is north facing, it's generally quite "cool" in terms of temperature. Furnace I need to replace no matter what, just whether I wanna do heat pump/ac as well since I'm at it.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

Fair enough, I read that some suggest a hybrid where you keep your gas furnace, others suggest removing it altogether and go fully heat pump. Others have commented that if it goes below like -8C, then it is not very efficient. Just hearing some stories from people who borderline regretted it.

With the push to de-carbonize, I forsee additional taxes etc on energy sources like Natural Gas, and it's just going to get more and more expensive to operate in the future.

The comments about the low temperature efficiencies of heat pumps is outdated and no longer true. Cold Climate heat pumps exist now. I have one.
It maintains a COP of 2.17 @ -15°C (217% efficient), and provide 100% rated BTU/h heating down @ -25°C. Kept my house toasty warm all last winter. And my house has next to zero exterior wall insulation.

IMO There is no good reason to keep the natural gas furnace as a hybrid system in our region anymore, and doing so limits available rebate funds.

FYI I work in HVAC, I'm an ASHRAE member (was even on the BOG of my local chapter), so I know a little bit about this stuff

[whitev70r]

you win, I'm convinced.

[SSM_DC5]

Originally Posted by Great68

That really depends on size & make/model of your unit.

My 3-ton used a 30A/240V 10-2 supply to the outdoor unit, and 14-3 power/control from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit.

A 4 or 5 ton might use a 40A/240V 8-2 to the outdoor unit. And some models might need the neutral, so then you'd need a 3 conductor.

You won't know what your exact requirements are until you select your unit.

Seems like I could run 8-2 from the panel to outside and I'll be covered for whatever I end up with by changing the breaker to appropriate amps. Then for the electrical wires from outdoor unit to indoor unit would just run on the exterior walls with the refrigerant lines.

[Euro7r]

Thought I give an update to this thread since the last time I posted.

I ended up getting a heat pump installed & furnace (replaced as mines was already ancient due to the age of the house). I got 3 separate quotes from different companies (a smaller independent company with good reviews & family used them, Costco, and Reliance). We ended up going with Reliance because the heat pump setup didn't require me to spend extra to upgrade my electrical panel. Costco required me to upgrade my electrical panel, with the added pitch if I wanted to charge a EV car, or run multiple stoves/washer-dryer appliances, my electrical panel can handle it. I didn't want to spend upgrading my electrical panel unless I absolutely needed it. We don't run heavy appliances all at once nor own an EV, so it seemed like it didn't make sense currently in our situation.

Overall with all the rebates, I am only forking out $7K. Still wanting for the damn money from the rebates lol.

So far the impression with Heat pump, the unit outside is quiet, but the air that comes through the vents of the house is hella loud. Sometimes at night, it'll wake me up when it kicks in when the temperature drops below the set threshold on my thermostat.

Also it seems to take forever to heat up, like it'll take 1 hour to heat up 1 degrees. Not sure if this is supposed to be normal?

[whitev70r]

Thanks for the info and real life experience. Going through that 1st stage with some quotes, good to know that some will need you to upgrade electrical panel. Are rebates going to stop or change in 2024?

Just as a point of reference, if you don't mind, how many sq ft is your house to heat (not trying to size you up in terms of blingness ). I'm thinking of replacing furnace as well cuz somebody said you get more rebates. Disclosure - I'm looking at 3 level TH about 1800 sq ft to heat.

If around $7K ... I can swing it just for the ac in the summer.

[Euro7r]

Originally Posted by whitev70r

Thanks for the info and real life experience. Going through that 1st stage with some quotes, good to know that some will need you to upgrade electrical panel. Are rebates going to stop or change in 2024?

Just as a point of reference, if you don't mind, how many sq ft is your house to heat (not trying to size you up in terms of blingness ). I'm thinking of replacing furnace as well cuz somebody said you get more rebates. Disclosure - I'm looking at 3 level TH about 1800 sq ft to heat.

If around $7K ... I can swing it just for the ac in the summer.

My house is 2000 sq ft. 2 bed 1 bath upstairs, 2 bed 1 bath downstairs. Initially I only wanted to do a furnace $7-8K budget, but when I sat down with the sales guy from Reliance, and ran the numbers with the rebates by doing also doing the Heat Pump, I'm paying an extra few hundred bucks more for Heat Pump. It was a no brainer to do both considering I'm already paying that much just for furnace alone already.

Not sure if the rebates end this year, I keep people say it is? Not sure if it's true or not.

To be honest the sales guy was a dumbass, I actually ended paying $1K less overall than what he initially quoted me. Every time I spoke with him, he could never remember what he quoted me, so I played dumb when he wrote a lower number on the invoice for me to pay LOL. He'll be like, was it this number or that number I quoted you. He wrote down the quotes on paper, but never kept a copy of it. So literally drawing out numbers out his ass each time.

[whitev70r]

^ what is said dumbass' name from Reliance, I'll ask for him .

DM me so as to not embarass him.

[mk1freak]

Originally Posted by Euro7r

.

To be honest the sales guy was a dumbass, I actually ended paying $1K less overall than what he initially quoted me. Every time I spoke with him, he could never remember what he quoted me, so I played dumb when he wrote a lower number on the invoice for me to pay LOL. He'll be like, was it this number or that number I quoted you. He wrote down the quotes on paper, but never kept a copy of it. So literally drawing out numbers out his ass each time.

I need a furnace replaced at house and received quotes from 5 diff companies. EACH one had separate issues that needed to be addressed......
like one company (bigger one) wanted to drill out the side of the room and exhaust out (instead of through the roof stack wtf). another big company wanted us to put sealed doors to the furnace room (in garage) but pretty sure current doors (louvred closet door things) are grandfather as house was built like that (80s) they've said they will find us a contractor but here we are almost 2 weeks later and no word. another company wanted us to upgrade the water tank with the furnace so i told them f off.

Who's this guy from Reliance? send me a dm sounds like he might be reliable

[bcrdukes]

I had mixed experience with Reliance, but this is out in the GTA, not Vancouver. I would never let them near my place ever again.

[Euro7r]

Originally Posted by mk1freak

I need a furnace replaced at house and received quotes from 5 diff companies. EACH one had separate issues that needed to be addressed......
like one company (bigger one) wanted to drill out the side of the room and exhaust out (instead of through the roof stack wtf). another big company wanted us to put sealed doors to the furnace room (in garage) but pretty sure current doors (louvred closet door things) are grandfather as house was built like that (80s) they've said they will find us a contractor but here we are almost 2 weeks later and no word. another company wanted us to upgrade the water tank with the furnace so i told them f off.

Who's this guy from Reliance? send me a dm sounds like he might be reliable

It's so annoying where each company advises different things to do be done. In one of my quotations I asked a smaller independent company for quotation, and they were the cheapest, but I didn't use them. Reason is if they go down under, then I'm kinda screwed for warranty (it was a 2 man company but great reviews). They were using brands that I never heard of as well for their products, so I figured that's why it was cheaper.

Sent you a PM on the reliance sales guy I used. No cost and no harm to get another quotation.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by Euro7r

Thought I give an update to this thread since the last time I posted.

I ended up getting a heat pump installed & furnace (replaced as mines was already ancient due to the age of the house). I got 3 separate quotes from different companies (a smaller independent company with good reviews & family used them, Costco, and Reliance). We ended up going with Reliance because the heat pump setup didn't require me to spend extra to upgrade my electrical panel. Costco required me to upgrade my electrical panel, with the added pitch if I wanted to charge a EV car, or run multiple stoves/washer-dryer appliances, my electrical panel can handle it. I didn't want to spend upgrading my electrical panel unless I absolutely needed it. We don't run heavy appliances all at once nor own an EV, so it seemed like it didn't make sense currently in our situation.

Overall with all the rebates, I am only forking out $7K. Still wanting for the damn money from the rebates lol.

So far the impression with Heat pump, the unit outside is quiet, but the air that comes through the vents of the house is hella loud. Sometimes at night, it'll wake me up when it kicks in when the temperature drops below the set threshold on my thermostat.

Also it seems to take forever to heat up, like it'll take 1 hour to heat up 1 degrees. Not sure if this is supposed to be normal?

So you got a heat pump with gas backup?
If so, then your heat pump is purposefully undersized for the full heat load of your house. This is why you didn't need an electrical upgrade with Reliance.
You'll still be covered for probably like 80% use case for the weather we experience, but yes this is also one of the reasons it's taking longer to heat up while it's on the heat pump.

Your thermostat should have settings to adjust the timing/differential points between stages which you can adjust to bring the gas heat on quicker. They're usually set up to try and use Staqe 2 as late and as little as possible.

[whitev70r]

Hey Great68, quick question, you're in the industry and know your stuff. Some insights on brand of heat pumps, please.

Mitsubishi, Daiken - I heard are the top ones. No issues. One company said that Daiken is good for split system but not the best for central duct, would you agree?

Gree - Chinese, parts are hard to get if needs repair but internationally, they make lots of units, cheapest in terms of cost, maybe louder?

American Standard and Trane - any thoughts on these, these sounds like good old NA made brands ?

[Great68]

Disclaimer: I don't sell or install any heat pumps themselves, I just have to work with and control their operation in the commercial/institutional sector.

I would agree that Mits & Daikin are kind of the cream of the crop right now. I run a Mits in my house, it's been fantastic so far.
See a lot of Samsung installations happening as well. The asian style units are really up there (the side blowing condener style) in popularity.

I don't know anything about American Standard, never seen them in my line of work.

Trane: Meh, not the biggest fan both commercially and residentially. My uncle has a 5 ton XR unit (the vertical style) It's fucking noisy. It has broken down and needed service a few times now in 15 years.

I feel like the North American stuff is just a generation behind the ball to the Asian stuff.

[bcrdukes]

Regarding Trane, I do not know of any positive feedback from both residential and commercial owner/operators. It's always negative.

A colleague of mine got a Trane, despite being warned it would be a pain in the ass to work with and it being noisy as hell. Ripped it out for a Daikin in 6 months.

[TypeRNammer]

Currently have a heat pump system in my 940sqft laneway house, one unit is usually left running all day while the ones in the bedrooms are usually off.

According to my BC Hydro account, it shows daily kilowatt usage of 70. Does that sound about right?

EDIT: that excludes charging my tesla

[whitev70r]

Any comments or feedback from those who changed over to heat pump this year? When temps hit this low, this is what people are somewhat concerned about in terms of efficiency or effectiveness of a heat pump.