SkinnyPupp's Adventures in Watchmaking

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by Badhobz

But being a gewilo in HK would help his credibility. Chinese people LOVES to see gewilo make/service stuff. They think its inherently better quality than if ching chong ling long makes it.

Youre right dukes, he might have a leg up on the competition.

GO FOR IT SKINNYY!!!!!

Just put on some of those round bottle cap glasses to make you look more german, grow a beard, and wear a leather apron and boom. you're a now a watch maker!

I was talking to my wife about this yesterday, and I might just do it. Her sister just moved out, so I can turn that room into a workshop.



Edit: I have taken all the related posts and made a new thread on this topic. If you're into watchmaking, please add whatever you have in mind!

[SkinnyPupp]

I've looked into the first steps of education, and there are a couple different levels one can take

-Learn from Youtubers. Free. This would be for hobby purposes only

-Learn from a tutorial site like watchfix or watchrepairtutorials.. These are be about $200-300 and by the end you'd be able to do basic maintenance on 3 handers and then you can go from there

-Distance education from a school like the British Horology Institute. Technician grade 1 year course is about $700, and you can then go there to take an exam to become accredited. They recommend in person lessons to prepare for this. This is the school in the video I posted above, and the technician grade covers the basics and more (for instance you make your own tools)

-In person education like WOSTEP in Switzerland. Tuition is about $20K for the first year service course, or $36K for 2 years watchmaking. I'd need to relocate to Switzerland, find room and board, etc. Unfortunately I failed at having rich parents, so this is kind of out of the question

-Brands have schools with free tuition (Rolex even pays an $1800 per month stipend). Richemont has a school in Hong Kong, I am looking into it (brb deleting all my Panerai shitposts). Obviously this gets you a job immediately as a technician. Rolex says the beginning salary is $70K.

They say no experience is necessary, but you would definitely want to be pretty adept at it before applying. In that case, one of the non accredited methods and a lot of practice may be the way to go. That is if you want to work for a brand rather than do it on your own. Either way, nobody is going to give you the ability to buy parts for yourself.

[Badhobz]

Skinny if you become a real whoreologist (lawl) I’ll come to Hong Kong and get some custom pieces from ya

[SkinnyPupp]

After a lot of consideration, I have ordered a tall desk and good lamp from AliBaba. I ordered some cheaper stuff like air blower, parts case, oil caps, etc from AliExpress.

I wanted to go to a watchmaker shop to buy the necessary quality tools and oils today, aaaaaand... It's Chinese New Years. They'll be closed for like a week

Been watching a LOT of videos from the watch repair tutorials channel, and I have learned a lot, but when I am ready to get started I think I will go with watchfix's lessons. He tends to get to the point more quickly and clearly.

Once the tools arrive I'll start ripping apart this ST36 (Unitas 6497 clone) and put it together. Also going to order an ETA 2824 clone and a Seiko NH35 to get some more varied experience. Watchfix also has a class on chronographs once I am confident I can handle that.

From there I'll see where I want to go.. I am thinking of going straight to the BHI course, and in that case I will need to buy a lathe. After a year of study and training, I guess it'll be time to head to the UK to get certified, and go from there. Before that, I may look into subsidized training from a brand like Swatch, LVMH, Richemont or Rolex (Richemont has a school in Hong Kong). But I am worried they would only be interested in taking in young students to get the most years from them. That's just my assumption though; I don't know how it works IRL.

[Badhobz]

Sweet !!! If my Patrick watch ever goes star up, you can take a crack at it…. Or RB.

I’ve been wearing my Patrick watch everywhere and I’ve gotten 5 guys asking to buy it from me straight up and double what I paid for it.

[SkinnyPupp]

This is the first time in a long time that I've felt like I have a direction I actually want to go, and can see a path to get there

[rb]

Wishing you the best with that Skinny, I really do. Not gonna lie, I'm pretty damn lost in life at the moment but the one thing that calms my head is when i'm distracted working on a watch or searching for my next watch project.

I once sold a watch to a hipster Korean kid who told me he wanted to leave his life behind to change the world being a watchmaker. Thought he was downright insane as he was telling me this as he got in my car to inspect the watch The SOB actually went to Switzerland for a few yrs to train as a watchmaker

[rb]

If you were in Vancouver (or near Coquitlam), i'd let you either borrow some of my tools to get started or just give you some of my unused tools. Oh and some of those tools you ordered will totally get the job done and if they happen to break on you, dont throw them out. They can often be modified for other purposes.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by rb

If you were in Vancouver (or near Coquitlam), i'd let you either borrow some of my tools to get started or just give you some of my unused tools. Oh and some of those tools you ordered will totally get the job done and if they happen to break on you, dont throw them out. They can often be modified for other purposes.

Appreciate it! I think right away I'll have what I need to service new movements, since no repairs will be needed. I will make sure the important tools are good quality - screwdrivers, tweezers, holder, loupe, etc. The prices here for genuine Bergeon and Horotec are insanely lower compared to online shops I've compared to, depending on the item.

But yeah, once I start messing around with old watches is when I guess I'd need specialized tools for jewel repair, staking, etc.

For the first bit I plan on servicing these movements over and over, and see how long it takes to feel competent with it.. The advice from both tutorial sites is different from the youtubers, and that is to do this instead of buying vintage movements, because you don't yet know how to make something work if something is wrong. If the schools in Switzerland have you working on a 6497 over and over at first, I think that's probably a good way to learn!

An idea for a first vintage project is to find an old pocketwatch with an actual Unitas 6497 in it, service that and stick it in my Panerai. (although I checked it with the timegrapher app yesterday, and it seems to be still doing well, within 2-5 spd in 3 positions, though the amplitude says 190)

I've found that if you search for 70's Swiss pocket watches you'll find a lot of them for $50-100, but if you search for the movement itself they will be pretty expensive

[SkinnyPupp]

I have been doing research in replica and clone movements, to see if they would give practical experience in genuine movements. I already posted about the Seagull ST3600 which is a legitimate clone of the expired patent ETA 6497. Same with the ST2130 which is an ETA 2824. Swiss companies make clones of this movement too, like the Sellita SW200. (don't forget that there are actual shitty clones of these though! Have to avoid those)

There's basically 2 or 3 rough categories of replica movements - repurposed off the shelf movements (usually an ST2130 clone) decorated to look like the brand it is in, or 'true clones' which are as close to 1:1 as possible and in some cases genuine parts can be swapped in. These are like the ones I mentioned above, but not legal since the patents are still active.

There are some Rolex movements that fall into this category, so that's another thing I can pick up for practice. Obviously the balance won't be 'free sprung' but if it's like 90% close, it should be practical

Then it occurred to me that there might be something in just being the 'replica service guy' for the more expensive reps. Most of these will come in the most shitty condition, poorly oiled and possibly with metal shavings in them if the movement is lazily decorated. The rep fans seem to be interested in finding someone who is 'rep friendly' to make their replicas work more like originals, but are too shy to bring them into a proper watchmaker.

There's a list of dudes doing this on reddit and their wait lists tend to be months long, with 3-4 services per week.. That would be a bout $50-70K a year of income if the work is steady. A good way to earn some money on the side while studying and practicing at the same time

Anyway there's my latest brainspill as I spent about 3 or 4 hours going down that rabbit hole

[rb]

A lot of the guys on reptime send their watches to get serviced right after recieving it. The DD3125 and 3235 being some of the most common movements for rolex reps. Some gen movement parts are a direct fit. About $150 for the movement on alix.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by rb

A lot of the guys on reptime send their watches to get serviced right after recieving it. The DD3125 and 3235 being some of the most common movements for rolex reps. Some gen movement parts are a direct fit. About $150 for the movement on alix.

Yup and DD4130 for Daytona reps, for about $300

I still find it hard to believe that a clone chronograph could actually be somewhat reliable

I checked and there doesn't seem to be anyone serving Hong Kong or really anywhere in Asia, at least on the big English language forums.

There's probably a million people here doing it for like $50 a service

[rb]

Asian 7750s are straight trash though. It might help give you experience with real vj7750s though as they arent exactly reliable either.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by rb

Asian 7750s are straight trash though. It might help give you experience with real vj7750s though as they arent exactly reliable either.

Most of the people I came across won't even touch those!

[SkinnyPupp]

Still waiting for tools to come, but I couldn't help myself

One of my ST36's (the fake Seagull that came with the Panerai) had stopped running, I think it must have gotten dropped or something.

So I removed the balance and put it back in, then it started ticking. Cool! Had to take apart most of the keyless works too, to reset a spring that had been dislodged. Managed to do this beside my window using a 5x magnifier and cheap screwdrivers

But its error rate is like 9ms and the amplitude is very low, and it just doesn't look right.. I won't bother trying to find out why for now, I'll mess around with it later. It was probably messed up by whoever cut off the seconds wheel pinion to make it a no-seconds dial.

But just for fun, @RB can you tell which one it might be by comparing it to a fully working one?

Streamable

BTW the working one seems to be magnetized, based on an app I used to test it. It makes the reading go DOWN for some reason. None of my other watches have an effect. I have one of those cheap blue demagnetizers coming in as well.

BTW sorry for taking over the thread. Once I start working on stuff, I'll make a new thread for it. RB you're MORE than welcome to post your stuff there too! Please!

[rb]

Like which one doesnt look right? Looking off if my ghetto phone, i'm going with the right. Balance wheel oscillation looks a bit off. Assuming they are both fully wound

Get yourself a good demagnetizer. Buy the one with a hole pass through. The cheap blue ones where you just place the watch arent as good.

As for projects, I dont have any at the moment lol. Have a ton of spare seiko parts so might do a samurai or skx build eventually so they dont go to waste.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by rb

Like which one doesnt look right? Looking off if my ghetto phone, i'm going with the right. Balance wheel oscillation looks a bit off. Assuming they are both fully wound

Get yourself a good demagnetizer. Buy the one with a hole pass through. The cheap blue ones where you just place the watch arent as good.

As for projects, I dont have any at the moment lol. Have a ton of spare seiko parts so might do a samurai or skx build eventually so they dont go to waste.

Yeah the one on the right was so messed up, 9ms error. I took a look at it and it was barely holding onto the stud. And I don't mean the stud fell out of the arm, I mean the hairspring came right off the stud! The cheap epoxy they used failed. Remember, this is the fake Seagull (yes, they will even make fake $30 products in China to go even cheaper)

It's not even worth attempting to fix that

I can use it for the springs and screws if I lose them

Apparently the trick with those blue brick demagnetizers is to turn it on and then lift the thing you're demagnetizing SLOWLY, as high as 2 feet above it. Repeat that a few times and it works. If you just put it on there and press the button, it won't be very effective. I'll test it out when it arrives. Sounds like a pain in the ass, but I am already spending a lot on other tools, and as long as it works I can go cheap on that one for now.

Nam Hing finally opened after Chinese New Year.. On a Friday. So now I have to wait until Monday to put my order in.

Their selection is quite limited, so everything else that I needed to be high quality I ordered from Cousins UK. Very cheap shipping! I expected to have to use a drop shipper. I have a couple things coming in from Taobao and AliBaba and AliExpress. Ordered some 99% IPA from China and hope it makes it across the border

Now I just need my sister to clear out that room so I can start building the workshop!

Here's what I have coming in

From Nam Hing (local tool shop). These prices are great, and yes they are authorized dealers listed on Bergeon and Horotec's sites. Comparing prices to Esslinger:

Bergeon Bench Top Sheet ($7 instead of $25)
Rodico ($2 instead of $7)
Bergeon Pegwood
Bergeon 5X/12X Eyeloupe ($11 instead of $25)
Horotec 6 piece Screwdriver Set with aluminum stand ($50 instead of $189)
Bergeon Oiler (Red) ($2 instead of $5)
Novostar Watch Oil (using Novostar for now just to practice - it's $2 instead of $35 for Moebius 9010)

From Cousins I have tweezers (Dumont), oil (D5), movement holder and some other stuff. I wish Nam Hing sold this stuff, it would probably be $15-20 for the movement holder instead of $40, and the tweezers would probably be half the price too.

Edit: The demagnetizer arrived and I just tested it out with a screwdriver and it worked. I tried it with a movement that detects at 50 uT on my phone (I think that's below what's considered magnetized, but higher than environmental magnetism which is around 20-30) and it didn't make a difference. Maybe it needs to be beyond a certain point?

[rb]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Edit: The demagnetizer arrived and I just tested it out with a screwdriver and it worked. I tried it with a movement that detects at 50 uT on my phone (I think that's below what's considered magnetized, but higher than environmental magnetism which is around 20-30) and it didn't make a difference. Maybe it needs to be beyond a certain point?

Oh its works, its just hit or miss in my experience lol. and yeah, Its somewhat similar to degaussing an old CRT where you move it around and away. I've saved many quartz chronographs and a few vintage automatics with the other version, whereas the blue one just didn't seem strong enough. Maybe the one i ordered was defective.

As for your tools, those are awesome prices for quality tools. Since you'll be mainly working on movements, I suggest getting a high quality hand setting press. I've bent a few handsets with those cheap spring presses

Learnt a neat trick for the seconds hand, place a tiny bit of rodico on the tip of a wooden peg to pick up a seconds hand, then align it and press gently. Far betting than picking it up with tweezers and trying to align it before pressing down on a press or tool

[SkinnyPupp]

So it turns out that the prices in that store's website are outdated by like 20 years

The actual prices are competitive to retail but not Cousins wholesale prices. That didn't stop my impatient ass from buying most of what I originally planned

Still need screwdrivers though. Thinking about Horotec aluminum which are reasonably priced compared to stainless steel

[SkinnyPupp]

Pretty much all my tools and furniture have arrived! Except the screwdrivers which I had to order again I got the Horotec aluminum set, which worked out to about $7.50 per screwdriver for a set of 10, plus the rotating stand. Not the top top grade but not cheap stuff either. I dunno

Also got my timegrapher! Of course the first thing I did was strap the ol' Panerai into it



That is in Crown Right position. Crown Up is also -2. Dial Down is -3 and Dial Up is actually the worst at -6, which is ironic because this should be the easiest position on the balance wheel.

The issue is the low amplitude at 215ish. This should be at least 270 at full wind. I can't wait to service this and see where it ends up after that. Hopefully not completely fucked lol

Here's my STEELDIVE with Seiko NH35, Dial Up. Dial Down is also great. Crown Right, Crown Up loses 8 seconds



And my Laco - Not the greatest results at dial up!. Crown Right was much better, at -1 s/d

[Badhobz]

did you get the most vital tool for a watch maker?!?!?!?

round glasses and a leather apron?! no? YOURE DOING IT WRONG !!!!!

[68style]

Aww man he ordered from temu and ended up with a round apron and leather glasses

[SkinnyPupp]

Sorry to spam but I am super excited lol

I gave my sister the rest of the month to move her stuff out (kind of regretting that, but hey it's family) so I still can't set up my workshop. I couldn't wait though, so I installed the lamp and decided to tear down one of these mofos

I tried the loupe which has 5x and you can add an additional 15x for inspection. I do not like it at all, even at 5x. It's uncomfortable and tries to point to the right and it's hard to mess around with and it fogs up. 1600's technology right? I still have that headset I bought to deal with those issues before, so I used that. 3.5x with additional light, but it is heavy (due to the AAA batteries) and really digs into the bridge of my nose. Still better than the loupe. I have to look into a better quality headset with 3.5ish mag. I see some have USB charging now which should mean lighter battery... Eventually I will get a microscope.

I got to compare the Dumont tweezers to my old cheap brass ones and holy shit lol. It's hard to think that they are even the same tool. Even as a total noob, I can manipulate tiny screws and springs with no problems. I would pick up the old tweezers to compare, and it was like using a set of tongs from the kitchen. They say tweezers are worth spending money on, and based on just this, I agree

Same with the movement holder.. I had a $2 Chinese one just to mess around with before, but the Swiss one is so much better. It just locks onto the movement and you don't have to fuck with it to get it to stay in place.

I'm sure the screwdrivers will be the same, but for now I had to use cheapies. I did dress the heads to fit better, but the screwdriver itself is all squeaky lol

So for the movements, I had my purchased Seagull ST36, and the Asia ST36 that came with my watch. As mentioned, the balance spring came right off the stud on the Asia one. The issue with the Seagull is that it would stop running frequently. So the idea was to tear it down, figure out what's wrong with it (I had an idea) and take that part off the Asia model

Just as I expected, I fucked it up back when I first got it, trying to turn the seconds wheel into a no-seconds (so removing the pivot that the seconds hand attaches to). This was the one I tried to file off, what a bright idea right? I figured that did it, but I didn't have confirmation now. What is in my watch now is a third one I bought, where I properly cut off the pivot with a pair of high quality snips. IT's been working great since then

So what was wrong with it? The jewel was cracked! The filing motion would have cracked it. So I took the train bridge off the Asia model for the rebuild

Put it all back together, and it's working great in all positions. Hopefully it's still running tomorrow lol



Tomorrow I'm going to do the same thing, but with a clean and oil. I have 99% IPA for cleaning (no need for anything drastic yet with new movements - and yes I know not to put shellac in there). For oil I have 9010 but I also got some 8000 to practice with. Also D5 which is cheap for medium viscosity since it comes in a big bottle, and Molykote DX which is cheap grease. Wish me luck!

From now on I'll stop spamming this thread with this crap. I was going to wait until my workshop is ready to start a new thread, but I might have to do it tomorrow if I end up doing the full service.

[68style]

I’m Okay with spamming, very enjoyable!

[SkinnyPupp]

Since you guys don't seem to mind the spam I'll post a quick update

I did a full service on the movement today - disassembly, cleaning (in 99% IPA with a brush, dried in a food dehydrator at 40C), oil, reassembly.

I even did the balance jewels and holy shit that is stressful. I pinged the jewel and the holder so many times, but somehow they only wanted to fly a few inches so I never lost them.

The top one was quite greasy, so dipping it in alcohol didn't do the trick. I buffed it on some paper and that gave it the mirror shine I was looking for

Lubricating these things is hard.. The cap jewel is about 1.3 mm wide, and you have to hit it with enough oil to cover about 50% of the total area - do the math lol. And it has to stay right in the middle. If it travels to the edge, you have to start over. I saw somewhere that ironically, bigger tweezers hold onto these things better. I have some cheaper 00 size coming, so I'll give it a go. If it feels better, I might have to get some good ones in that size too.

This is all done with a shitty loupe fogging up every 2 minutes. I have to use my air blower to clear it up when it does. I can't stand that thing, and I will need to find a better solution asap. Microscopes are about $120 on Taobao for what looks like the same sold unbranded on watch repair sites. Might need to fit that into the budget sooner rather than later. I also read that you can cut vents into your loupe which can help with the fogging, so I'll give that a look in the meantime. I feel like my sweaty head might be too much for it though

It took a long time but I got them together and the watch is running

The service helped tighten the timings quite a bit - beat error is down to 0.1ms, and it does a better job of holding a steady rate throughout all positions (delta is like 4 seconds but I won't know until tomorrow for more complete results). The amplitude did not improve yet though, so the mainspring itself may be weak.

New problem though - when running dial up, the movement stops after about 20 minutes! Last time it happened I gave the center wheel a little poke through the jewel with some pegwood, and that seems to have knocked it loose. (edit 3 hours later: Since doing this, the watch has not stopped again). I believe this is the "Asia" seconds wheel that came with my watch, rather than the one I filed down and ruined the other jewel with. I'll give that other wheel a try later, maybe after making sure the filed pivot is nice and smooth first, with this stupid loupe

Morning Edit: Watch is still running well this morning! Even better now that the oils have settled in