Question regarding speed limits

[Soundy]

See sig below...

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Right. So the sign you claim to mark the end of the school zone is in fact for the other road users on the other portion of the road.

You can't reasonably expect that the back of the sign intended for other road users applies to drivers to which it may not even be visible. Again, hence why the MVA states that the driver may resume normal speed once passed the school grounds and not the other sign.

I'm sure if you ever try that on a road test you will not fail due to a "Violation", or when Police are monitoring speeds in the School Zone, they, and the Traffic Court Judge will agree with you. My real world experience differs from your theory.

[sebberry]

Every time I've seen enforcement in school zones, it's targeting vehicles that are adjacent to the grounds or building - they're not gunning the cars that have passed the grounds. How often have you targeted the cars that had passed the grounds? (serious question).

Another serious question - Because speed limits do generally apply to both directions of a road, why do we have "End of xxkm/hr" signs if the back of the sign on the other side of the road is sufficient?

[zulutango]

Easier to stop a speeding car coming towards me than one that is speeding away from me.
Here is a question for you and your theory of...past the building means speed up...most school zones have signs on them, past the buiildings and grounds, usually on the back of the school zone start signs for oncoming traffic not yet at the building or grounds. These signs say "zone ends'.....so drivers are required to keep the 30 k speed until they pass this "traffic control device". This contradicts your "theory" as this says the zone continues until you pass this sign, not just past the buildings or grounds. See my previous post on my opinion on having to look for sign backs.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by zulutango

Easier to stop a speeding car coming towards me than one that is speeding away from me.

So... you could set up AFTER the school zone monitoring traffic in it? How many of your tickets were issued to drivers passed the school grounds but before the second sign?

Originally Posted by zulutango

Here is a question for you and your theory of...past the building means speed up...most school zones have signs on them, past the buiildings and grounds, usually on the back of the school zone start signs for oncoming traffic not yet at the building or grounds. These signs say "zone ends'.....so drivers are required to keep the 30 k speed until they pass this "traffic control device". This contradicts your "theory" as this says the zone continues until you pass this sign, not just past the buildings or grounds. See my previous post on my opinion on having to look for sign backs.

I have never seen on the back of a school zone sign "Zone ends".



Let's recap:

- 147-1 states that a driver must not exceed 30km/hr while approaching or passing the school grounds

- 147-1 does not define the end point of a school zone as being the other sign, nor does it make reference to not exceeding the limit "at any point" between the signs

- The case I referenced clearly states:
"One might have thought that having set a 30 km/h zone with a beginning and an end, the section would have clearly set a maximum speed of 30 km/h while driving in any part of the zone. But it does not so state. A vehicle is only required to drive at a speed of 30 km/h in the zone while approaching or passing the school building and school grounds."

- The MoTI's handbook on sign placement states that the general rule is to locate signs on the right hand side of the roadway, except in circumstances where visibility would be problematic or road design makes it advantageous to place them on the left side - even then, the "printed" side of the sign would be visible to the driver.

[wing_woo]

This was something I've always thought was stupid. There's no where defining the end of a school or playground zone.

I have occasionally seen signs indicating a speed zone is over and you can resume your speed, but I think that might have been in the US.

It seems almost like they purposely leave it ambiguous so people who don't know and don't want to chance speeding in the zone will drive at the lower speed a little longer than necessary just cause they don't know when they are allowed to resume 50km/h.

Normally, I will keep the slower speed until I pass the sign on the other side. Luckily school zone signs have a unique shape so I don't really need to turn around and see the sign on the other side. I can just recognize it from the back, but really, I think they should actually put signs indicating the end of the school/playground zone.

[underscore]

As per usual, sebberry has made the thread into something completely different from what the OP's original question was about.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by underscore

As per usual, sebberry has made the thread into something completely different from what the OP's original question was about.

Originally Posted by zoomzoom3

How do I know when a "posted limit" ends?

And I've been discussing where a speed zone ends.

[underscore]

You're yakking about school zones. Meanwhile:

Originally Posted by zoomzoom3

My bad, I should have been more clear in my original post. My question is more geared towards situations where there is no "next sign" (generally rural roads). To word my question more concisely: when do posted limits stop applying and statutory limits take over?

[sebberry]

And I'm arguing that there no "next" sign at the end of school zones

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by sebberry

So... you could set up AFTER the school zone monitoring traffic in it? How many of your tickets were issued to drivers passed the school grounds but before the second sign?




I have never seen on the back of a school zone sign "Zone ends".



Let's recap:

- 147-1 states that a driver must not exceed 30km/hr while approaching or passing the school grounds

- 147-1 does not define the end point of a school zone as being the other sign, nor does it make reference to not exceeding the limit "at any point" between the signs

- The case I referenced clearly states:
"One might have thought that having set a 30 km/h zone with a beginning and an end, the section would have clearly set a maximum speed of 30 km/h while driving in any part of the zone. But it does not so state. A vehicle is only required to drive at a speed of 30 km/h in the zone while approaching or passing the school building and school grounds."

- The MoTI's handbook on sign placement states that the general rule is to locate signs on the right hand side of the roadway, except in circumstances where visibility would be problematic or road design makes it advantageous to place them on the left side - even then, the "printed" side of the sign would be visible to the driver.

The back of the sign assembly for the opposite direction of travel terminates the 30 km/h speed zone.
From the Mininstery of Transportation website...quote "

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/key_initiati.../mvb-amend.htm

[sebberry]

Perfect, let me know when that's included in the amended MVA Until then, the law that applies is what's in the MVA, not the interpretation the web guy has of it...

[Flatsix]

Originally Posted by sebberry

So... you could set up AFTER the school zone monitoring traffic in it? How many of your tickets were issued to drivers passed the school grounds but before the second sign?




I have never seen on the back of a school zone sign "Zone ends".



Let's recap:

- 147-1 states that a driver must not exceed 30km/hr while approaching or passing the school grounds

- 147-1 does not define the end point of a school zone as being the other sign, nor does it make reference to not exceeding the limit "at any point" between the signs

- The case I referenced clearly states:
"One might have thought that having set a 30 km/h zone with a beginning and an end, the section would have clearly set a maximum speed of 30 km/h while driving in any part of the zone. But it does not so state. A vehicle is only required to drive at a speed of 30 km/h in the zone while approaching or passing the school building and school grounds."

- The MoTI's handbook on sign placement states that the general rule is to locate signs on the right hand side of the roadway, except in circumstances where visibility would be problematic or road design makes it advantageous to place them on the left side - even then, the "printed" side of the sign would be visible to the driver.

I have not been through a school zone that does not have a school zone ends sign. I also live on Vancouver island.

Not to go off topic but are school zones in effect during pro d days, and such. I had an argument that kids needed to be in school for it to be an active school zone.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by Flatsix

I have not been through a school zone that does not have a school zone ends sign. I also live on Vancouver island.

Not to go off topic but are school zones in effect during pro d days, and such. I had an argument that kids needed to be in school for it to be an active school zone.

Could you post a Street View of such an "end" sign?

And yes, school zones are in effect on pro-D days. Check the Canli link above.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Perfect, let me know when that's included in the amended MVA Until then, the law that applies is what's in the MVA, not the interpretation the web guy has of it...

I didn't realize the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure was just a "web guy".

[Flatsix]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Could you post a Street View of such an "end" sign?

And yes, school zones are in effect on pro-D days. Check the Canli link above.

Thanks for the info,

[Flatsix]

Maybe kids take them down? But every school zone I have seen has them

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by Flatsix

Thanks for the info,

Damn it man!!! Now he's just going to switch his moanin' to another irrelevent point!!!

[SoNaRWaVe]

personally i have never seen an "zone end" sign. i was always taught to look for the back of the sign, which signifies the beginning of the 30km/h zone for oncoming traffic.

[nsx042003]

Richmond doesn't have the School zone ends sign

[Flatsix]

Did a little more searching every school zone I could find had a sign.

I like the U.S. Method. School zone in effect when children are in sight. Makes wsy more sense.

Here you have a school zone during school hours hardly any kids, summer time no school zone but kids are going to the school to play >.<

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by Flatsix

Thanks for the info,

Thanks. Must be a Nanaimo thing? Never seen one around here.

I still maintain that if the MVA wanted vehicles to remain at 30km/hr until the point at which opposing traffic is met with the limit, it would be worded as such. However, it isn't - it specifically says "while passing" and this wording has been recognized and commented on by the courts.

I also think that with signage standards requiring signs to be placed on the driver's side of the highway (except where disadvantageous to do so), drivers shouldn't be required to obey signage that only appears on the other side of the road, facing other drivers.

[Flatsix]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Thanks. Must be a Nanaimo thing? Never seen one around here.

I still maintain that if the MVA wanted vehicles to remain at 30km/hr until the point at which opposing traffic is met with the limit, it would be worded as such. However, it isn't - it specifically says "while passing" and this wording has been recognized and commented on by the courts.

I also think that with signage standards requiring signs to be placed on the driver's side of the highway (except where disadvantageous to do so), drivers shouldn't be required to obey signage that only appears on the other side of the road, facing other drivers.

Sounds like you should run for transportation minister

I think it comes down to common sense and I doubt people would want to fork the bill for two signs on either side. I think it's easy enough to read the sign on the opposite side when you are doing 30. With kids today I go slow near school zones anyway, far too many kids like jumping out into the road or playing in the road to chance it.

[underscore]

School zone speeds are more for dodging stupid parents not paying attention to where they're aiming their car than dodging kids IMO.